Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
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3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
That would be because I'm the boss of the Prime Minister's department. That would have been going right to the top and saying, “We have this very serious issue. The minister wants it looked into. What's the best way to proceed?”
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
So then it would have been up to you as to whether or not the NSA was asked to look into the matter.
3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
At that time, I decided this was a matter of GIC conduct. I gave the task to Ms. Sherman.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
To go to the issue of pay, would an order in council for a pay raise for a chief of the defence staff typically be signed by the Minister of National Defence?
3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
The economic increases wouldn't have been a matter for Minister Sajjan to get involved in. As I said, all GICs—and there are 160 full-time GIC appointments and about 1,000 part-timers—got an economic increase, a pay raise, in the spring of 2019. It was held for three years because Minister Brison at Treasury Board didn't want to process salary increases for people at the top of the government while the Phoenix pay system was still broken.
There was a three-year catch-up and a resetting of salary bands that rippled through all GIC appointments in the spring of 2019. That's the order in council you would have seen.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
If an order in council for a pay raise passes with the Prime Minister's Office being cited as the authorizing department, does that require the Prime Minister's signature?
3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
We would have needed some written version of agreement to that. Executive orders are authorized or recommended by ministers.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
At the end of your tenure as clerk, what day of the week were cabinet meetings typically held?
3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
During the time I was there, cabinet meetings were typically Tuesday morning in the weeks that the House was sitting, and not during House breaks.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Does the presence of a few dozen orders in council adopted in one day indicate that a cabinet meeting took place on that particular day, or that a particular order in council was walked around?
3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
No. Not all orders in council executive orders go before cabinet. Many do, but a large number of them actually go to Treasury Board. Treasury Board has delegated authority to make all kinds of executive orders, orders in council. It's a large part of the Treasury Board agenda as well. There are some that would go to the Prime Minister for approval. Then they would get processed, basically.
They all end up on the desk of the Governor General.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Does the Prime Minister receive briefing notes on the orders in council?
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
If the Prime Minister's Office was the responsible office for an order in council, what would that mean in terms of briefing notes received by the Prime Minister and the likelihood of the Prime Minister's signature on such an order in council?
3:30 p.m.
As an Individual
In general terms there would be a cover note with a recommendation to the Prime Minister saying, here's a batch of orders in council or a specific order in council that you need to take a decision on.
The Prime Minister has a particular role in appointments and a particular role in changes to the machinery of government—the pulling apart and and putting back together of government organizations.
Typically there would be a note from PCO giving a recommendation or options and asking for his agreement, and these would usually come back from the Prime Minister with an initial okay or some kind of indication, or they would sit for a while before they came back.
There is a document management system that logs every single note the PCO sends to the Prime Minister and every one that comes back.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Wernick, you referred earlier to the 36 recommendations made in Great Britain to address the sexual misconduct issue.
Could you name one recommendation in particular that would help us encourage victims to testify?
3:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't have all the information on hand. However, I think that the Wigston report raises the same issue that Mr. Lick brought up about trusting the process and changing the culture around accepting behaviour that has become normal in the military.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Wernick, what do you think about the idea of an independent office that would report directly to Parliament, an idea gaining momentum in the defence community?
3:30 p.m.
As an Individual
It's a good idea, but it's not necessarily the answer.
There are about a dozen officers of Parliament: the Auditor General, the Information Commissioner, the Commissioner of Official Languages, and so on. A range of agencies help Parliament to monitor the executive branch, that is, the government. One more can certainly be added. It doesn't guarantee success, but it could be a way to go.
I agree that we need a stand-alone, independent agency.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
If you want, I would like to give you a little more time to tell us about any other method that would have helped you get to the bottom of the investigation of General Vance. Otherwise, I invite you to expand on one of your previous responses.
By the way, I congratulate you on your impeccable French.
3:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you. That's quite a compliment because, since I retired, I have rarely used the language of Molière.
I don't have a specific recommendation. If you want, I can speak to this again and give you my advice when the government has introduced legislation. The Wigston report may be a model for Parliament and the government to follow.
My interpretation of what happened is that things turned into a vicious circle. When you write your report, it will be up to you to decide whether you agree with me or not. Minister Sajjan had other options, Mr. Walbourne had other options and I had other options too, but what happened happened. In the end, we were at an impasse because the source was anonymous and the person who filed the complaint did not give us permission to proceed.
In my opinion, it was really the system as a whole that created the situation.
I think there were options for Minister Sajjan to do things differently. I think there were options for Mr. Walbourne to do things differently, and I can see there may have been options for the Privy Council Office to do things differently that would have created different timelines.
The sum total of what happened created an impasse and we couldn't move that forward. I regret that.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much.
If you have finished, Mr. Robillard, we will go to Mr. Benzen.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to both witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Wernick, you're there to advise the Prime Minister and keep him informed of what's going on. There is this sexual harassment allegation and it comes to a standstill, but I'm concerned that you know it's there. What were you thinking in terms of our foreign adversaries? What were you thinking about other countries in the world and how they may find out about this and use this to compromise our top soldier? What were your thoughts on that?