National Defence Committee on April 22nd, 2026

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

It's a bit like Ms. Le Scelleur's experience. As I said, when I started my training, I saw groups of people who didn't speak French. They were supposed to listen to the radio, respond to orders and give orders on the radio in their second language, even though they hadn't been trained to do so and they lacked the necessary knowledge. It was always quite a challenging situation.

I spoke about the idea of recognition and about the need to make these courses available in both languages. Let me explain what often happened. People would come in and there would be, for example, about twenty young anglophone officer cadets and three francophones. We wondered whether we would split the course in two. Since we couldn't do that, we used a francophone assistant. All the courses were held in English and a bilingual francophone would give a bit of help to the unilingual francophone next to him.

As you said, it will be expensive. However, we can do this if we want to. We're allowed to do this. In my opinion, it's a competitive advantage for our country and for the Canadian Armed Forces. I have no doubt about this. We just need to put in the necessary time and effort.

By the way, congratulations on learning French, Mr. Watchorn. It's fantastic.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

You can have one question.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

I'll be brief.

I would like to ask the people who served more recently whether they saw any improvements over time.

Major Sauvé, you can answer first.

[Eric Sauvé]

There have certainly been improvements.

I started at the Royal Military College Saint‑Jean in 1992. I saw people learning French. I apologize for using this expression, but I had a “Newfie” in my room, and he learned French. Today, he speaks fluent French. However, when the military college in Saint‑Jean was closed in 1995, we were transferred to Kingston. I had an uncle who was a French teacher and who was transferred there. He said that it was worthwhile because the anglophones weren't coming out of Kingston bilingual.

So there have been some improvements, but some setbacks. Certainly, things have improved in terms of respect for the individual and respect for others. I've given courses on diversity, inclusion and so on. I don't want to get into a debate about equity, diversity and inclusion here. My point is that openness has been shown to the different people there. They're no longer treated as a single entity.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Sauvé and Mr. Watchorn.

Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for their remarks today.

Ms. Le Scelleur, I would like to start by saying that I was in the House on Monday when my colleague, Ms. Gaudreau, paid tribute to you. I would like to join her in saying how much I appreciate your service.

You spoke of the sometimes difficult and bumpy road in the life of a francophone or, ultimately, any soldier, military member or member of the forces.

However, let's talk specifically about cases of trauma. In your experience, are the support mechanisms, particularly in the area of mental health, for active members and veterans—I imagine that the two situations differ—available and accessible in both languages? I must point out that accessibility isn't the same thing as availability.

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

Thank you for your question and especially your comment.

When it comes to trauma, as everyone knows, it's not possible to access psychologists directly within the Canadian Armed Forces, or CAF. That occupation doesn't exist in the ranks, so people often request outside support when it comes to psychiatrists or social workers.

As for my personal experience, I was treated by a francophone psychologist, but the psychiatrist and social worker overseeing my case were anglophone. I remember having to explain my story over and over again to the psychiatrist and not being able to find the right words to express what I was going through. He said he understood, but just how much did he understand what I was experiencing? On top of that, I was in Ottawa, a region that actually has a lot of services. Francophones on isolated postings in the regions have no access to French-language resources. They get virtual services, but when you're not doing well, virtual contact isn't what you need; you need human contact, connection with a person. I think there's still a long way to go, especially when it comes to mental health services.

There's a point I'd like to come back to. Earlier, Mr. Paul‑Hus asked whether the inability to speak the language could put CAF members at risk. When I was deployed to Afghanistan, we had to change our process for evacuating casualties from the field to the military hospital. We had to follow the Americans' process, called 9‑Line Medevac Request. The whole process had to be carried out in English. However, on the ground, in combat, you don't necessarily know who's going to be affected. The person who has to transmit the message over the air could be a private or corporal who can't necessarily speak English. Will the message be communicated properly? Will they be able to do it? The answer is yes, not being able to speak the language can put people at risk.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

That drives home Mr. Maisonneuve's interpretation joke at the beginning of his remarks. The point is more or less the same: when you don't understand the order, it puts everyone in danger.

I want to make sure I fully understand what you said. You said there weren't any psychologists and you had to rely on outside services. I imagine that involves shopping around, checking Google to see whether there's a psychologist belonging to the Ordre des psychologues du Québec close by. I hope the CAF has good insurance coverage for service reimbursement. You said that you had access to a psychiatrist but that the psychiatrist didn't speak French. That means the person in the CAF directly providing the service couldn't serve you in French. Is that correct?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

Yes, exactly.

I asked whether I could see someone who spoke French, but I was told that the wait-list was very long and that there weren't necessarily any French-speaking psychiatrists. They asked me what I wanted to do. What is someone supposed to do in that situation? Do they neglect their mental health and wait, further jeopardizing their health, or do they try to cope as best they can with the English-speaking provider available to them?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

You didn't have any other option, then. Obviously, unlike psychologists, the psychiatrists seldom have a private office where patients see them.

Still, did they offer you anything, for instance, in partnership with a hospital or clinic? Was there an alternative?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

No, absolutely not.

I didn't have access to interpretation services either. Sometimes you see that in hospitals, someone who can provide language help to patients in French or English, as was mentioned earlier. I wasn't offered anything like that. To try to make myself understood, I really had to rely on myself. That's how I managed to get anywhere. Later, I had the help of my psychologist, who was able to send my English-speaking psychiatrist clearer requests.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

I want to ask the other witnesses who served in the forces the same question.

Does that reflect things you've heard before or experienced yourself?

[Eric Sauvé]

There aren't enough mental health services in the CAF, period. After I left the forces is when my mind opened up to the issue of mental health. I became aware of anxiety and depression, which I was completely hiding.

I would say that awareness opened the floodgates. I think about 40% of people in the armed forces struggle with a mental health issue. I was in the special forces, and I think the number in that organization could easily be as high as 90%. You can't tell. It's a hidden illness. It's taboo. People are professionals, so they keep going. They carry on as best they can and look for any available services.

Personally, I had five psychologists and two psychiatrists, and they didn't necessarily have the specialized training to address my specific needs, given what I had been through. That was extremely hard.

I will say that what helped me was opening up, talking about my issues, be it on social media or to command. I highlighted the importance of talking about it, of needing to break the taboo. It did me a world of good, and I gather that it did the same for those who heard my story.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Before I go to Mr. Maisonneuve, I want to ask you this. You experienced the long wait-list and everything else Ms. Le Scelleur talked about, did you not?

[Eric Sauvé]

In my case, I had already been out of the forces for a long time, but I can connect my mental health issues to the CAF. I sought professional help on my own, using my own insurance, as a civilian. I do know, however, that there aren't enough resources, having educated myself afterwards.

We train a soldier. If they have a physical wound, we fix it. If they have a mental wound, we also need to help them.

One big improvement is that now, people with anxiety are allowed to join the armed forces. I know about anxiety. I lived with it for two years. It's not a lifelong problem. It's like a broken arm; it gets better. The armed forces didn't used to let people with anxiety in. Some people still have doubts about that. Personally, I was highly effective in my role, and I still am. For a period of time, I was no longer effective and I needed help, but I got better.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Mr. Maisonneuve, do you have anything to add?

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay. Your time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Sauvé.

We now go to Mr. Anderson.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Thank you very much to all of the witnesses who came today.

General Maisonneuve, I want to play the devil's advocate a bit here. Professor Chouinard said that French should begin in BMQ, and/or BMOQ, I assume. BMQ is really a culture change. It's taking young adults who have spent a couple of decades in the civilian world and turning them into soldiers.

I'm wondering if, in your view, BMQ is the best place to start language training, adding that task to the culture shock that they're enduring.

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

I don't think so, and I don't think that's what Professor Chouinard.... We should ask her what she really meant by that.

I think what we're talking about here is providing the opportunity as people go up in rank. In terms of non-officers like soldiers, there's no doubt that in their career as they move up they're going to serve in units where, if they're anglophone, they're usually going to go to an anglophone unit, and the same with francophones, who will go to a francophone unit, like Major Sauvé did. However, as they go up in rank, as they get to the sergeant and warrant officer ranks, they might be going as instructors in one of the schools, or they might actually serve outside their own regiment, for example, in Ottawa. In those cases, they do need to have language training earlier in their career. As I have said before, I learned English when I was 14. I still dabble in it now because I have to. Really, the earlier you can learn it, the better it is, so that's a great thing.

As Major Sauvé was saying, when you go to military college even today, what they try to do—and what we tried to do in the 10 years that I was in Saint-Jean—is put a francophone cadet with an anglophone cadet to be roommates. That's fantastic. I dare say that all the cadets in Saint-Jean who leave Saint-Jean are usually very close to being functional, if not functional. I am talking about anglophones and francophones. Francophones are not usually an issue.

I know for a fact that in Kingston there is a requirement now if you want to graduate and be on parade with your peers after four years—or five years if you started in Saint-Jean—you need to have passed the four different pillars, of which one is bilingualism. If you haven't passed it, you get to stay back until you pass it, and that's the way it should be.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Okay. That was the same requirement they had in grad school at the University of Manitoba. You had to be bilingual, at least nominally.

In your view, at what point during the rank progression should the officer stream, first of all, and the non-commissioned stream, second of all, begin to learn French?

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

You have to understand that I have been out now for quite a few years, but essentially, I believe the requirement to be functional happens at the lieutenant-colonel level or the equivalent in the navy for officers. I don't know what it is for non-commissioned members, but I know there is a requirement eventually. If they go in as chief warrant officers and go into the higher tiers, if you wish, of chief warrant officer positions, they need to achieve their functional ability.

What's very interesting is that if you look at the Canadian Forces general orders that come out about officers being promoted—the general officer plot and the colonel plot, for example—you'll see very often that they're promoted as interim. I can't remember what they call it now, but it's not a substantive promotion.

Very often, the reason they're not substantive is that they have not passed their functional level in bilingualism. The functional level is actually not very difficult to get to. You just need to work hard and you can get to it. The next level is integral, which is more difficult, but I believe that if you're going to be a general officer in our Canadian Armed Forces, you ought to be integral in both languages.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

My question is really about at what point in the training. Is it early in the qualifications after BMQ? At what point do you suggest that you begin to force people to learn languages?

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

Well, as an officer, immediately and as a non-commissioned officer, a private or corporal, etc., I believe there's really no need unless you have a need.... If you're a francophone going to an English-language unit, obviously you should get the training before you get there.

Usually what happens at the lower levels, as a private or a corporal, is that you end up going to a unit of your own language, if you wish. To me, the requirement is only there to be, for a master corporal or sergeant, when you get to a point where you're going to be teaching, for example, at the recruit school or at one of the trade schools, etc.