National Defence Committee on May 4th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 35 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Pursuant to the Standing Orders, the committee is meeting today to study the situation of francophone and indigenous members in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Today's meeting is taking place in hybrid format.

Before we continue, I will ask participants to consult the guidelines on the table to help prevent audio and feedback incidents, and to protect the health and safety of our interpreters.

As a reminder, please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

For interpretation, use your earpiece and select the appropriate channel.

As a reminder, comments should be addressed through the chair.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

We have Becky MacIsaac, chief warrant officer, 1 Canadian Air Division headquarters.

We also have Debbie Eisan with the First Nations Veterans Council. She is the Nova Scotia representative.

Thank you for attending.

We also have a number of new members on our committee today.

We have a few activities happening, so we will engage through our conversation and open dialogue to benefit from your insights.

We will begin with five minutes for each witness.

Ms. MacIsaac, we will start with you.

[Becky MacIsaac, Chief Warrant Officer, 1 Canadian Air Division Headquarters A8 Comptroller, As an Individual]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and committee members.

Thank you for inviting me today to take part in this study on the situation of francophone and indigenous members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

My name is Becky MacIsaac. I'm an anglophone. I've taken language training with the forces. I'll do my best to speak in French today. I may ask you to repeat certain questions if necessary.

I'm a Métis woman who has served for 24 years in the Canadian Armed Forces. I've also dedicated a significant part of my career to learning French. I've held various positions in administration, recruitment and financial management. I'm currently the chief warrant officer in financial services as well as the chief warrant officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force's financial services administrators occupation group.

I grew up in a military family and community in the Prairies. My father was originally from Newfoundland. My mother is a Métis woman from Lac Ste. Anne, Alberta.

Since my mother was taken away from her family at the age of three, I didn't grow up with any knowledge of my Métis culture. Only later did my mother's research enable me to reconnect with my family and my history. My Métis identity grew stronger over time. I was proud to become a citizen of the Métis Nation of Alberta. This marked the beginning of my own journey of cultural reconnection.

I joined the forces in 2002, influenced by my family background. I wanted to provide stability for my daughter, achieve my career goals and serve my country. After witnessing the deployment challenges in the 1990s, I was motivated to improve the quality of life of military members and their families.

From the start of my career, I've understood the importance of French in the forces. At first, it was difficult. I didn't understand much. However, I persevered. A key moment came when a supervisor clearly told me that I needed to improve my French. I took this advice seriously by pursuing full‑time training. I was then posted to Quebec for five years.

This immersion, both at work and in my personal life, was crucial. I learned to work in both languages, to adapt to the language preferences of my colleagues and to manage in a bilingual environment. Even when the going got tough, especially in training or in the field, I persevered by adapting and finding solutions, including in the career courses that I took in my second language and as an instructor for francophone administrators.

In my field, bilingualism is essential, especially for promotions. However, access to language training remains limited. I've been lucky enough to benefit from certain opportunities, such as a posting in Quebec. That isn't the case for everyone.

In general, I've had no trouble obtaining services in both languages. In Quebec, I often chose French, which gave me the opportunity to improve my skills. At work, I regularly used both languages depending on the situation.

In multinational environments abroad, the reality is different. The services are often provided in multiple languages, but English becomes the common language. I believe that what matters most in these situations is the competence and professionalism of the people speaking and the ability to properly convey key information.

In terms of retention, I've exceeded my career goals to date. As a single mother, I've been able to give my daughter a stable and rewarding life. My career has given me the opportunity to grow, learn a second language, complete a bachelor's degree in Canadian studies and serve in Canada and abroad.

As I approach 25 years of service, I'm thinking carefully about where to go from here. The values of respect and diversity, as well as safety and inclusion, remain important to me.

I'm ready to answer your questions. I'll do my best to answer them in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. MacIsaac.

I appreciate your opening remarks.

Before we begin our questions, we'll go to Ms. Eisan for her opening remarks as well.

Thank you.

[Debbie Eisan, First Nations Veterans Council, Nova Scotia Representative, Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you.

I would like to acknowledge that we are all gathered here today on the unceded and ancestral territory of the Algonquin nation.

[Witness spoke in Anishinabe]

[English]

My name is Debbie Eisan. I am a member of the Batchewana First Nation by Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario.

I am a 36-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. I retired from the military in December 2011.

I started working at the friendship centre on the Monday after retirement, but in the final years of my career, I was the aboriginal adviser to the admiral for the navy, and also to the general for the army. I spent 15 years doing that job, as well as being the national aboriginal recruiting adviser.

I would like to thank the chair and members of the Standing Committee on National Defence for this opportunity to speak to you this morning.

I'm very grateful for this chance to represent the Assembly of First Nations and the First Nations Veterans Council. We have a written submission that is being sent to the clerk today, which covers both historical and current barriers to first nations recruitment, retention and career advancement.

First of all, on first nations witness representation, I would like to recommend that this committee consider extending this study by one meeting to hear from other first nations' voices.

First nations citizens have a long and proud history of serving in Canada's military. It is critical that you hear from more first nations veterans, youth, women and gender-diverse people to gain a better understanding of the challenges and deterrents to first nations recruitment, retention and career advancement.

Regarding first nations languages, during the Second World War, Cree code talkers developed a coded system based on their language to disguise military intelligence. The diversity of cultures and languages in Canada is a strength that should be treated with the same recognition as English and French bilingualism.

The AFN has reviewed the language program that is offered through the Canadian Armed Forces, and there are very few references beyond the use of first nations languages at commemorative events. We recommend that the Canadian Armed Forces transparently list programs in their languages of operation, including whether first nations languages are represented within training programs for first nations service members.

We also recommend that public-facing materials be translated into first nations languages to improve the reach of information to first nations communities.

Regarding first nations recruitment, first nations citizens are under-represented in the Canadian Armed Forces, with 2.9% self-identifying as indigenous, compared with 5% of the general population.

The Canadian Forces recruiting group provides minimal training in first nations community outreach and culturally relevant recruitment practices. The modernization of using online application portals to apply to the Canadian Armed Forces leaves behind first nations communities in northern and remote areas of the country. Only 39% of first nations have access to high-speed wired connectivity infrastructure, with 56% of first nations having no mobile service in their communities. Having recruiters travel to northern and remote first nations is essential if the Canadian Armed Forces is going to meet its recruitment targets.

The Canadian Forces recruiting group also needs to develop cultural competency training for their recruiters to ensure that they are being respectful and responsive to first nations needs.

Regarding first nations retention, the attrition rate of indigenous service members is 7.1%, which signals a systemic failure to foster conditions where first nations service members can build meaningful, long-term careers within the Canadian Armed Forces.

Institutional racism and discrimination are prominent in first nations' experiences with the Canadian Armed Forces, and yet first nations people still voluntarily enlist to protect this country.

The universal service requirement is structurally incompatible with family and community obligations that are central in many first nations. The Canadian Armed Forces' universality of service is a missed opportunity to embed first nations' cultural ties into daily life in a meaningful way.

Regarding first nations career advancement, the Canadian Armed Forces has been criticized for funnelling first nations recruits into entry programs to satisfy the employment equity targets without supports to address the unique needs and career aspirations of new recruits.

Developing personalized career plans for first nations recruits at the start of their military journey to align training and career progression with their professional goals would help to address criticisms of indigenous tokenism. Offering a specialized mentorship program aimed at developing first nations leaders within the Canadian Armed Forces would both help with retention and create a clear pathway for career advancement.

In closing, since the War of 1812, first nations citizens have voluntarily joined Canadian and U.S. forces in major wars and international conflicts. Once they return home, first nations citizens face discrimination while in active service and numerous barriers to accessing critical supports.

There is a section in the submission that speaks to the critical after-duty supports that are needed for first nations veterans, which I want to bring to the committee's attention.

Meegwetch. Thank you very much for this opportunity to appear before you.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Meegwetch to you.

Thank you for your opening statements.

We are going to our first round of questions, each six minutes long. We will start with and welcome Mr. Marc Dalton to the committee.

It's over to you, sir, for six minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses for sharing their experiences with us.

Ms. MacIsaac, my story is similar to yours. My father was in the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was from Alberta, and I too am Métis. We're probably related because my family is also from around Lac Ste. Anne and the area north of there. It's nice to meet you.

My father spent 36 years in the armed forces. He joined during the Korean War. I'm a veteran as well. I was a reservist for a while. We always knew we were indigenous, but we didn't talk about it much. Before he died, I asked my father why he hadn't been more open about the fact that he was Métis, and he said that it wouldn't have helped him at all. That was the situation. Back then, people's attitudes towards indigenous people were much more negative.

I'm happy to see that things are changing. That's very important. I am a citizen of Métis Nation British Columbia, and I have family in Alberta. I'm also a francophone. My mother is francophone, and she encouraged me to learn French. As a teenager, I resisted, but I made the effort to learn later in life.

That brings me to my question. Have you seen significant changes? I believe you said you've been in the Canadian Armed Forces, or CAF, for 25 years.

[Becky MacIsaac]

Almost 25 years.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

That can't be.

In the military world, have you seen the attitude towards indigenous, first nations, Métis or francophone people change? Has it always been the same, or has there been a change?

[Becky MacIsaac]

When I started at the leadership and recruit school in Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu, everyone around me was bilingual. There were English-speaking and French-speaking recruits. The first day, I was put in a room with French-speaking girls. All of my English-speaking instructors were bilingual. From day one, being in a bilingual environment was normal to me.

As for indigenous people, I saw that they were really a minority in the CAF. My first posting was in Cold Lake, and I worked with first nations people there. I did in Winnipeg, Montreal and Gander as well. Indigenous people are always in the minority on military bases. Eventually, the CAF set up the indigenous advisory group to advise the chain of command and better serve all members.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to both of you for your service.

I'm wondering, Madam Eisan, about the Canadian Rangers program. How many are there? I don't have the numbers. What component is indigenous? Are we seeing a transition of those who are involved in the rangers in the Northwest Territories moving into the regular forces? Has that been beneficial?

[Debbie Eisan]

In the past it wasn't beneficial. I was one of the advisers for the indigenous programs when I was in uniform, for the Black Bear program, the Raven, the ALOY program, which is ILOY now. At the time, we brought rangers into the programs.

There was one particular instance. There was a sergeant who spent many years with the rangers. He wanted to join the regular force, but they wouldn't give him any time served as a ranger. He opted to stay with the rangers and rightly so. Over the years, they are starting to allow time served in the rangers as time served if you join the regular force. This is an advancement forward. With the new push for the north, especially with the navy and the situation where things are now, the rangers are becoming a very integral part of success and survival in the north. They are a very huge part of the Canadian Armed Forces now in the work that they do.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

That's good to hear. I mean it wasn't good that it wasn't recognized, but that there's a change that the reservists' time is counting, and it certainly should be applying to this also.

I see we have come to the end, but I'll just put a question out there. The last time, the committee heard that indigenous enrolment was far below target and that officials have clear statistics on indigenous representation at the general and flag officers senior leadership level.

From your perspective, what should DND and CAF be focusing on? You may want to weave that into one of your responses. If you have a quick response, go ahead.

[Becky MacIsaac]

I think indigenous veterans can make the biggest difference for the community. They're good role models for young people who are thinking about joining the forces.

[Debbie Eisan]

For me, it's when we do get indigenous members into the Canadian Armed Forces. For example, if we have a young fellow coming from Siksika First Nation out west and he wants to join the navy and they send him to Halifax, he brings his family with him. What they need to do is consider the families that are coming with them. They're working very hard to make sure that culture and spirituality is observed within the Canadian Armed Forces, but they're unintentionally leaving the families behind. Retention is a huge part, and they need to start including families, especially with the military family resource centres, including programs and mentorship within those organizations.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

Mr. Watchorn, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. MacIsaac, thank you for your proficiency in French. Your French is outstanding. You have no issues there.

Mr. Dalton also speaks fantastic French. I want to thank him as well. Well done.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

We're nearing the end of our study, and I'd like to give each of you some time to share your recommendations with the committee.

Ms. MacIsaac, how can the CAF do a better job of integrating francophones?

Ms. Eisan, how can the CAF do a better job of integrating indigenous people?

Ms. MacIsaac, you can go first.

[Becky MacIsaac]

As far as integrating francophones into the CAF is concerned, I think moving to Quebec was very helpful, as was working with others as a team, speaking the language and having various opportunities. I work with francophones all over the country, and it's the same. Francophone members are all over the country, from Winnipeg and Alberta to Newfoundland and Labrador. I would say that they're already integrated in the CAF, and that we just have to make a bigger effort to speak French more often. It's true that, in the air force, English tends to be the day-to-day operating language, and that is why it's important to find solutions so that people can speak French.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Mrs. Eisan, I'll ask you the same thing.

[Debbie Eisan]

Yes, for me, if you were recruiting indigenous people from across this country, wherever they're posted to, it's important for that base commander or admiral in charge to learn the language of the territory they're in.

I'm not saying that you have to be fluent in Mi'kmaq, Algonquin or Cree, but at least learn the language to welcome that person to the territory. Welcome them just so you know that you're open to more language learning.

I understand French and I speak a bit, but not much.

I also understand the importance of our languages and who we are as indigenous people. Those are our roots. All of our teachings, all of our ceremonies and all of our history are rooted in our language. We can't switch our ceremonies to English, because it just doesn't work the same way.

Understanding the importance of knowing, when an indigenous person comes in, how to say “hello”, “thank you” or “see you later” in the language of the territory you're in goes a long way to showing that we're moving forward in accepting indigenous people.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

That's interesting. Those are great answers.

Ms. MacIsaac, in terms of operations, the CAF has two fighter wings, one in Bagotville and one in Cold Lake. Have you seen barriers to integration in those two units? I assume one is predominately French-speaking and the other is predominantly English-speaking.

[Becky MacIsaac]

I worked at the fighter wing in Cold Lake. Now I'm at division headquarters, in Winnipeg. We oversee the wings.

I think bilingualism is present in both wings, but obviously, Cold Lake is more English-speaking and Bagotville is more French-speaking. I think the fact that francophones at the Cold Lake wing are immersed in English and, similarly, that anglophones at the Bagotville wing are immersed in French really helps the members of the air force build the skills to work in both languages. It's a bit like that now, but day-to-day activities are still conducted in English in the Royal Canadian Air Force.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you.

You said you didn't have any trouble accessing services in both languages. Did you have trouble getting training in both languages? Is there a lack of training?

[Becky MacIsaac]

Yes. Currently, the schools don't have enough instructors, so we're always having to ask units to provide master corporals, sergeants, warrant officers and so forth, to help with short-term teaching needs. Sometimes courses are cancelled if instructors can't be found. It's happened a few times in the past year, for both French and English courses.

With current recruitment and course availability, the situation is shaky when it comes to the ranks of chief warrant officer, sergeant and warrant officer. That is the situation we're seeing.