National Defence Committee on May 4th, 2026

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Watchorn and Ms. MacIsaac.

We now go to Mr. Savard‑Tremblay for six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and sharing their insight.

I want to join my colleague in complimenting you on your French skills. Thank you for making that effort.

Ms. Eisan, I believe you said “meegwetch” at the end of your opening remarks. In Wendat, we say “tiawenhk”. That's how we say thank you.

I'm a member of the Wendat nation. Unfortunately, Wendat is mostly a dead language. We've seen efforts to revive it in the past few years, with some language classes being offered, but Wendat has disappeared from everyday use. I myself took classes eight years ago, but it's very hard to keep up your skills in a language that people don't commonly use. Still, we hope that efforts to revive and revitalize Wendat will continue and that it becomes popular again among the people of Wendake.

My first question is for you, Ms. Eisan.

We know that the CAF was aiming to increase indigenous representation to 3.5% by March 31, 2026. That deadline has passed. According to the numbers we have, 2.9% of regular force and primary reserve force members self-identified as indigenous in 2024‑25, whereas indigenous people make up 5% of the population. That means indigenous people are under-represented in the armed forces relative to their numbers in the general population.

Indigenous recruits accounted for 4% of recruits in 2022‑23, and 5% in 2023‑24 and 2024‑25.

With indigenous recruitment at 5%, why is overall indigenous representation still hovering around 3%? Is there a problem with recruitment? Is there a problem with retention? Is it due to a lack of trust in the institution?

[Debbie Eisan]

I think it's all three of those. The recruitment problem is, when you go into communities.... If we go back to the history of indigenous folks here on Turtle Island, in Canada, there's a problem of trust. It's a huge thing when a non-indigenous person goes into a community and tries to recruit. If it's not an indigenous person going into the community to recruit, there's an automatic overlay of mistrust of the information that's being put forward. Even as an indigenous person, when I go into first nations communities, they accept and know that I'm indigenous, but it takes a while to gain the trust of the community and the people.

Trust is one thing for recruiting. Another is being able to look at the information and to see what is offered in the language of the people who are joining, whether they are first nations, Métis or Inuit.

Another thing is retention. As I stated before, if you put somebody in an area that's not close to their community, they're going to be homesick. They're going to be missing.... You have to include their families so that there are things there for their families to do.

For example, when a sailor sails for six months at a time, his family is left behind. If he's a Cree person in Mi'kmaq territory, there's a disconnect unless he knows where to go. It's really important to have programs in place for families to go to when they need help.

Another one is language. Language is a barrier that will not help with retention.

With the three of those, I know it sounds like a huge problem, but a little bit at a time we start understanding the nuances behind recruiting. You would not send a non-Indigenous person into a remote community to ask that community to send their young people to be with us and join the Canadian Armed Forces.

The history is there from our treaties. People would sign up to honour our side of the treaties to protect Turtle Island, but the intergenerational trauma that exists with the federal government is there, and that's a barrier to overcome.

If you do, then you're looking at a language barrier and a retention problem, not only if they're not with their families, but also if they're single. You're taking them away from their communities. That's another huge aspect of it as well.

You start chopping away at those barriers a little bit at a time, maybe by putting indigenous knowledge keepers into each one of the bases. They could be there in an advisory capacity to the base commanders, the MARLANT or the wing commanders, to advise them on issues that may arise with indigenous service people. Those are small things that can move forward. It doesn't have to be elders. It can be knowledge keepers or veterans.

At the Assembly of First Nations Veterans Council, we have representatives across the country. We come together, and we do great work. We are very strong supporters of recruiting for the Canadian Armed Forces. At the same time, they have to reach out to us to get our help because we can't just go in and say, “Here we are. We're going to take over.”

Meegwetch.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

You talked a little about institutionalized racism in the armed forces. Would you say it's institutional, or is it simply a matter of prejudice being spread from individual to individual?

I'm going to digress for a moment to talk about another type of workplace. I represent a very agricultural riding. Foreign workers are always in demand. I understand there's a problem that needs fixing when it comes to foreign workers, but why not hire indigenous workers? Working with farmers would bring indigenous people out of the isolation of their communities. They would have positive experiences and be part of the workforce. That is where I still see some prejudice towards indigenous people in terms of employment. It's not necessarily towards indigenous people as individuals; it's more towards indigenous people in the workplace.

Is that the case in the armed forces as well? Have you heard things like that?

[Debbie Eisan]

Yes. One of my favourite persons is former senator Murray Sinclair, who is now in the spirit world. He said, “Education has gotten us into this mess, and education will get us out.”

I firmly believe there is racism and discrimination because people don't understand our culture and don't understand who we are. From the time I first joined in 1975, I experienced racism and discrimination until the point when I reached the rank of sergeant, when I said “no more”. I took it upon myself, as my mission, to start educating the Canadian Armed Forces about our culture—what our smudges are, what our spirituality is, who we are as an indigenous people why residential schools have a strong impact in our communities, and intergenerational trauma. The people you're recruiting are individuals who are suffering 98% of the intergenerational trauma from their parents being in residential schools. That racism and discrimination comes with them.

We have to educate. That's something very important that TRC brought forth. The blanket exercise tells about the history of indigenous people. That's the truth part. The reconciliation is what we do from this day forward. Each one of us reconciles in a different way. In terms of helping to educate, that door goes both ways. It's not us sitting here saying that you need to learn about our culture. It's also us saying that we are here to help educate, to share our culture with you, and to share, as best we can, our ceremonies, which are different across the county.

I think that's the way to move forward. We're not there yet. I'm happy to say that we're moving, but we're not there yet. We have a long way to go.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Eisan.

Thank you, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay.

I would like to welcome Mr. Billy Morin to continue with our second round.

You have up to five minutes, sir.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you both for coming today, and thank you for your service.

Ms. Eisan, you answered about five of my questions.

In the last one, you were talking about culture in the military service. There's a chaplain position in the military. There are religious support services. I'm wondering if you could highlight a tangible example from your service of where sweat lodges mattered, or where any of the cultural ceremonies mattered, when it came to recruitment and retention.

[Debbie Eisan]

Absolutely. I'll give you a personal example.

In my service, I was posted in Montreal, in Anjou. I ended up being six months in Rwanda. When NATO closed out Rwanda—this is a bad example for me to use, but I'm going to use it anyway—I came back not the same person. I went through the military, through social workers, to try to help me through. It was helping, but it wasn't getting me there. I requested time off and I went on leave. I went to my elders. I went to a sweat lodge. I went to ceremonies. I spoke to elders to help me get through the things I experienced and the things I did.

The sweat lodge helped me clear any negative energy I had in my system and helped me to move forward. Honestly, I can say to you today that, otherwise, I wouldn't be sitting here today—I still tear up when I think of those children and I think of the things that happened over there—in the way that I am, advocating for indigenous people and advocating for our spirituality, our culture and our ways of life with our sweat lodges, our ceremonies and the things we need in order to move forward.

We have been working with Veterans Affairs to offer sweat lodge ceremonies and to have elders try to help individuals who are still in uniform through situations with post-traumatic stress syndrome and help them move forward. You can't treat everybody the same way. It doesn't matter if our skin is all the same colour; we all have a different way that we have to be looked at in order to move forward in a very positive way.

That's my example of why those ceremonies are so important.

Meegwetch.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you for sharing that, for your vulnerability and for your advocacy.

I'm going to take it to what some people might view as an extreme or tough question.

You have 24 years of experience, Ms. MacIsaac, and, Ms. Eisan, you have 36 years.

I'm just going to jump into it. I'm googling what Finland does with mandatory service for males and the general population.

Given that you have a long history in the military and come from a military family, do you see a conversation to be opened up in Canada about mandatory military service and the benefits or the detractions of that?

[Becky MacIsaac]

When I was deployed to Kosovo, the Swiss army was there, and in Switzerland, military service is mandatory for men. They told me how the system works, and as a strategic policy, it's quite impressive. As a result, though, women make up just 1% of the Swiss army. Women explained the situation to me, telling me that they all serve on a voluntary basis.

I think it's a good experience for everyone. People learn discipline, teamwork and what it is to serve their country. It's a good idea, but I think we need to do some more research and look not just at countries like Switzerland.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you.

The only thing I'd note is that Finland is the happiest country in the world. It seems to work over there, too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Morin.

We're happy in Canada as well. We need to do better, and that's why we're having these conversations.

Ms. Idlout, I turn the floor over to you for five minutes.

[Lori Idlout, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Debbie and Becky, for your service and your courage to share your experiences with us. You're both so important individually and for the study as well, and I really appreciate you both.

Debbie, I really appreciate how much you want the focus on indigenous languages to be more prominent and how much you want to serve indigenous people with their languages. I hope that this committee takes your recommendation to extend the study by a day. Maybe you can submit some names of those who could be called as witnesses.

If we do extend it, I know, for example, that I would ask the commissioner of indigenous languages to appear as a witness. In 2019, the federal government enacted the Indigenous Languages Act, which requires the federal government to do what it can to ensure that first nations, Métis and Inuit are being served in their languages. It would be great to hear from them how that legislation can help improve the Canadian Armed Forces in terms of recruitment and retention, as well as in terms of making sure that programs and services that are reflective of our cultures continue on. That's so important. I hear that in your voice, Debbie, so I do appreciate that very much.

I've learned, for example, that National Defence will commit $1.5 million annually through the indigenous reconciliation program to increase defence and collaboration. I wonder if you could share with us if you think that is enough from National Defence to make sure that there's reconciliation.

[Debbie Eisan]

I see it in layman's terms, so I understand the importance of the dollar values of things. From my perspective, I think it should be an ongoing thing, regardless—and this is probably not going to go well in this room—of the dollar value. When you do reconciliation training and truth training, you do that for the individual group of people there, but things evolve and people move on. If you don't have the things in place to do the training for those who come next, then it's going to get lost and we're going to go right back to where we started.

I really think it's important that people—not just Canadian Armed Forces but all Canadians—understand the history of indigenous people, how we got to the point we're at today and why we are fighting so hard for our culture, for our spirituality and for our recognition. That is the only way we're going to move forward so that people understand the history.

I do a lot of this training and I get the good, the bad, the ugly and the “oh my God” from people who get it and from people who don't want to get it. For me, it's important for it to move on. If you tell one, they'll tell more.

Within the Canadian Armed Forces and within all of Canada, people need to understand that. For an indigenous person to sign up to fight for Turtle Island, for Canada, is a huge step.

A lot do it because their grandparents did it or their great-grandparents did it. In my family, I'm the only one who has signed up to do this. I think it's important and I feel that it's my responsibility for the people coming after me to start sharing this knowledge, this culture and my experiences to make it easier for those young people coming in. As an elder, as a veteran and as a grandmother, it is my responsibility to do this, and I take it very seriously. That's what we have to do. I understand budgets and money, but we need to keep moving forward regardless.

Meegwetch.

[Lori Idlout, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you. That's a great response. This is the venue to do it, because we'll be writing our report and we'll be making recommendations that go to National Defence. You shared that perfectly for us.

I have a specific question for you as well, because of your history.

The Canadian Coast Guard is transitioning to the National Defence department. It's seen as an enhancement for opening relationships with the coastal communities in Canada. I wonder if you have any specific recommendations for making sure that it is a smooth transition for the Canadian Coast Guard to go into National Defence and so that collaboration with coastal communities can be strong.

[Debbie Eisan]

I had the honour and opportunity, as an elder, to be part of the ceremony to bring the Coast Guard under the navy. I worked with the Coast Guard a lot out of Halifax before they moved under the navy. I've shared the blanket exercise. I've shared culture with them. I've introduced them to the Atelihai program at the Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre, so that they have access to the culture and the elders from the Inuit community. I have introduced them, virtually, to the Inuit elders and seniors who I have met in my travels in uniform.

They are really working hard to make that transition easy for them by having sister communities so that they understand ceremonies and the culture. They're learning a little bit of the language of Inuktitut for when they travel to the communities, but they're also understanding that there are 51 different dialects of Inuktitut, so it's not the same in Nunavut as it is in the Northwest Territories. I think they're on the right track. They're working very hard to make sure they do it right the first time by moving slowly.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Eisan. Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

It's now over to Mr. Savard‑Tremblay.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. MacIsaac, do Métis peoples fall under the same programs? The Canadian Armed Forces have different recruitment programs for indigenous people. Are Métis peoples covered by the same programs?

[Becky MacIsaac]

Yes, first nations members, Métis peoples and Inuit are all covered by the CAF's indigenous programs.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

There are a lot of programs. It's a long list: the Canadian Armed Forces indigenous entry program, the indigenous leadership opportunity year, Black Bear, Bold Eagle, Carcajou, Grey Wolf and Raven.

It's a sizable list. You'd automatically think that, with so many programs, at least one has to be working. Are they effective? Why is it still hard to recruit people?

[Becky MacIsaac]

I think social media are a good way for the Canadian Armed Forces to get their message out to all the communities. You also need good leaders, solid role models, mentorship and good recruiters to communicate with all the communities concerned.

It's just about creating a climate, an environment, where all members of the country's military are respected, including in the media. Oftentimes, the media publish negative stories and don't cover the stories we're proud of.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Do you think a bad image is to blame?

[Becky MacIsaac]

That's exactly it. There are all kinds of stories that showcase courage, search and rescue operations, war contributions and military families. Those stories need to be covered, to teach people about the positive aspects of the military community, its operations and its work overall.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Is that your opinion as well, Ms. Eisan?