Evidence of meeting #32 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was power.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Niall O'Dea  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Colin Hunt  Secretary, Canadian Nuclear Society
Peter Easton  Director of Communications, Canadian Nuclear Society
Angie Robson  Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

November 15th, 2016 / 9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the department. Since last summer, there have been allegations—from what Mr. Barlow talked about and what we've heard—of concerns about nuclear safety that I think have come up as a result of allegations against the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission that have called into question some of the programs in place. There was an anonymous letter claiming that information on non-compliance was withheld from commissioners. That was followed by a report by the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development, which found that CNSC was not inspecting reactors often enough or thoroughly enough.

Can you perhaps explain your relationship between the department and the CNSC? Also, what measures have been taken by the department as a result of that commissioner's report and as a result of concerns that have been raised about the CNSC?

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Niall O'Dea

Thank you for the question.

First, I think it's important to note that CNSC is an independent regulator that reports to Parliament through the Minister of Natural Resources and, in that respect, has independence from our department. I think the key for us in our support of the minister is ensuring that he's well supported with information as to the CNSC's activities.

I can certainly comment specifically on the two elements in question that you raise, both the anonymous letter and the recent CNSC audit. As you'll be aware, the CNSC did conduct an internal review of the claims raised in the anonymous letter and found that the claims were unfounded. The CNSC released that report for review and held a public meeting to review those findings. CNSC commissioners have confirmed that they're satisfied with the results of that review.

The CESD reviewed the CNSC as well and did find that it had improved upon its record-keeping and documentation practices with respect to site inspections. The CNSC has accepted those recommendations and is taking corrective action to address this. That includes ensuring that criteria for certain types of inspections are formalized and integrated into its management systems and improving staff awareness of procedures for site inspections and administration.

Three of the five concerns that the CESD raised have already been addressed. As evidenced before, the government does place the highest priority on safety and security in nuclear activities. The CNSC is recognized as among the best regulators in the world. It's subject to regular international peer review of its practices and has been found to be one of the best.

I will conclude by saying that the minister has clearly expressed publicly his confidence in the CNSC as an independent regulator, and I think that is the starting point we work from.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Thank you.

In the limited time I have left, I want to talk about the small modular reactors. We heard about that in our mining study as well, and it was brought up today. In spite of the polling data that's been shared here that people are perhaps generally supportive of nuclear power, I think that's until you talk about moving it into their backyard or somewhere they might be affected. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I just think it's a reality that when it's in your backyard it has a different connotation.

Is the department working on providing support to the nuclear industry in scaling these projects or commercializing them? What is the department's take on the small modular reactors?

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Niall O'Dea

Thank you for the question, Mr. Strahl.

The federal government does support work on innovation in nuclear technology and research through Canadian Nuclear Laboratories and AECL's federal nuclear S and T program, so there is work going on to support nuclear innovations through that program.

It should also be noted that Sustainable Development Technology Canada funded two innovative nuclear reactor projects. One is Terrestrial Energy's, which is an SMR-related project. They provided $5.7 million to that project in 2016. There is also the General Fusion project, which is for a fusion-related reactor technology being developed in British Columbia. That technology has received two rounds of funding from SDTC, one for $12.7 million in 2016, and an earlier funding of $13.9 million back in 2009.

As a department, Natural Resources is reaching out to its stakeholders to better understand how innovative technologies, including SMRs, could play a role in the government's commitments to supporting clean technologies. We have partnered with Ontario in a study of the feasibility of different SMR technologies. We also funded a study by the Fedoruk Centre on aboriginal attitudes toward nuclear energy to better understand what the possibilities could be for the application of those types of technologies in remote contexts. It is an area that is promising in terms of innovative technology development.

Canada has unique advantages in respect of the potential development of SMR technologies, particularly in having a performance-based regulator able to incorporate different types of technologies in its reviews, as well as conditions that include a lot of remote communities in need of reducing their reliance on diesel and also remote mining operations requiring alternative energy sources, where I think international and domestic companies see potential applications for the SMR technology. We're continuing to work to support the exploration of those opportunities.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much, Mr. O'Dea and Mr. Strahl.

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for this portion of the meeting. Again, thank you to all of our witnesses for attending today. It's been a great start to this nuclear study that we've just embarked on. I appreciate your attendance.

We'll suspend for two minutes and then start again.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

We will resume.

We have one more witness joining us today to conclude the mining portion of our study: Angie Robson, who has made her way here from Sudbury.

Thank you very much, Ms. Robson.

She comes from Vale Canada Ltd., which is Canada's largest mining company, and I think this is an appropriate way to conclude what we are doing here. Without further ado, I'm going to open the floor to Ms. Robson.

You can provide us with remarks or comments and then we'll open the floor to questions. Thank you very much for joining us today.

9:50 a.m.

Angie Robson Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members.

My name is Angie Robson, and I'm the manager of corporate and aboriginal affairs for Vale Canada's Ontario operations. It's an honour for me to be appearing before this committee to discuss innovation in the mining sector and what governments can do to support future growth for our industry and companies like Vale.

Earlier this year, at the World Economic Forum, the Prime Minister mentioned that he wanted the world to know Canadians for their “resourcefulness”, not just for our country's abundant natural resources. At Vale, we have always believed that resourcefulness is fundamental to our success in developing natural resources responsibly and sustainably, wherever we do business.

As you may know, our company has a very long legacy and history in Canada. Formerly known as lnco, we began mining operations in Sudbury, Ontario, in 1902, where we now operate one of the world's largest fully integrated mining complexes, including six mines and a mill, smelter, and nickel refinery, as well as a cobalt and precious metals refinery in Port Colborne. While my discussion today will focus primarily on Ontario, our operations in Canada also include mines and production facilities in Thompson, Manitoba, as well as Long Harbour and Voisey's Bay in Newfoundland and Labrador.

It was 10 years ago last month that lnco was acquired by Vale and it has continued to operate as a Canadian-based global subsidiary of one of the world's largest diversified mining entities. In the decade since, and despite very challenging economic times for mining, Vale has invested more than $10 billion into our Canadian operations, with more than $4.3 billion of that invested in capital projects in Sudbury alone. This underlines Vale's strong commitment to our Canadian operations and the communities in which we operate.

These investments have focused on modernizing our assets, improving environmental performance, and strengthening our global competitiveness both in up cycles and in down cycles in order to support the next generation of employees at our Canadian operations. We have to breathe new life into our current mines and build the mines of tomorrow, and for an operation that's been in Canada for more than 100 years, the only way we can do this is through innovation, significant capital investment, and strong partnerships with our communities and with government.

When we talk about innovation, it's not only in a technical and commercial sense, but also in a social sense with respect to the way we approach our responsibilities and the social licence to operate. I thought I would share a few of those examples in my remarks for you today.

In looking at technological innovation, one of the capital investments that we're most proud of is our recently opened Long Harbour processing plant in Newfoundland. This facility uses a hydrometallurgical process that Vale developed in-house. It processes nickel concentrate directly to metal products without having to smelt the concentrate, thereby significantly reducing the greenhouse gas emissions and other emissions typically associated with mining production.

This one-of-a-kind technology, which had financial research and development support from the federal government, applied the know-how within our company to find better ways of doing what we've always done. This is a true example of how, working together with government, we created a success story for Canadian innovation.

In Ontario, we used the latest in innovation to build our newest and most modern facility, the Totten Mine. Totten features the latest in mine technology and safety automation, including a wireless underground communication system and state-of-the-art control room. Through the Wi-Fi system we've installed underground and the use of radio-frequency ID tags on people and equipment, we can immediately identify where everyone is at any given time, providing obvious benefits from a safety perspective.

The system also allows for “ventilation on demand”, something we're increasingly looking to apply to our other operating mines. Currently, our ventilation systems are designed to run at full power, around the clock, throughout the entire mine, like running an air conditioner at full blast when no one is home. It is no surprise, then, that ventilation accounts for roughly half of our energy bill.

Instead, at Totten, our ventilation system directs air based on the detection of the RFID tags and adjusts the volume of air accordingly through the use of automated control systems and fans. While the upfront costs to apply this technology to our older mines will be substantial, we expect the energy savings and environmental benefits we realize through this system to be significant, so this will be a key focus for us moving forward.

Applying technological innovation to help enable mining at depth is also a key priority for us as we look toward the future. The majority of our reserves in the Sudbury Basin are below our current infrastructure and at depths where there will be significant costs and challenges to mine the ore.

For example, we're currently mining at about the 8,000-foot level at Creighton Mine, and our intent is to mine down to about 10,000 feet. This is incredibly deep and is a true story of innovation in its own regard. To paint you a picture, this is like mining to a depth of about five and a half CN Towers stacked underground—certainly no small feat in engineering.

In order to get there, we're collaborating through research and financial contributions to organizations such as CEMI—the Centre for Excellence in Mining Innovation—and its Ultra-Deep Mining Network and to the Deep Mining Research Consortium. We understand that we can't solve this problem alone. As we move forward, we have to collaborate with our government, academic, and industry partners in order to come up with solutions that will continue to support Canada's place as a leading mining jurisdiction.

On the environmental front, adapting 21st century technologies such as ventilation on demand to 20th century infrastructure is essential to ensure our ongoing success. Another great example of this is our $1-billion Clean AER project at our Copper Cliff smelter complex in Sudbury. This project is the most complex and innovative flow-sheet redesign we've taken on since the 1980s, resulting in an 85% reduction in sulphur dioxide emissions, a 40% reduction in particulate emissions, and, importantly, a 40% reduction in greenhouse gases. The project is currently 65% complete with nearly $800 million spent to date.

This tremendous reduction in emissions will serve to complement our reclamation activities in Sudbury. For those who can recall the impact of acid rain on the surrounding environment in the 1980s, the innovative approach we've taken in working together with government and our community partners to achieve the green transformation of the city has been stunning and is a Canadian success story that has been internationally recognized and is one that we can all be very proud of.

Innovation has also been a hallmark of how we have approached partnerships with first nation communities wherever we do business. Before we developed the Voisey's Bay nickel mine in Labrador, our company engaged the Inuit and Innu in a partnership that produced impacts and benefits agreements that are still considered the gold standard in Canada. Today at Voisey's Bay, we're very proud to say that more than 50% of our workforce is indigenous and 80% of our service and supply contracts are awarded to indigenous businesses.

It's important to note that the Government of Canada was a significant partner in the training component of this success and provided significant funding for the Voisey's Bay joint employment and training initiative, JETA. Vale is currently working with local communities on a funding request for training support for the underground mine development phase at Voisey's Bay, which is now under way.

While we've set the bar with Voisey's Bay, we also have a growing aboriginal participation in our Manitoba and Ontario operations. In Thompson, Manitoba, for example, we've traditionally had retention issues because of the remote northern location and therefore focused recruitment efforts on local indigenous communities. As a result, we're proud to say now that more than 20% of our workforce in Thompson is indigenous. In some cases, this required looking hard at our recruitment policies to eliminate extraneous criteria that were barriers to employment for certain candidates. As my colleague who led the initiative in Manitoba likes to say, “It wasn't about lowering the bar for candidates; it was about widening the door.”

Finally, Vale is extremely proud of the investments and other contributions we've made to fund innovation and science. In Sudbury, we've been collaborating through research and financial contributions to organizations such as CEMI and the Vale Living with Lakes Centre, a centre for excellence in research in freshwater restoration, which is part of Laurentian University. Perhaps most notably, Vale is very proud to be a partner in SNOLAB, which is hosted underground at Creighton Mine and is conducting Nobel-prize-winning research that is breaking new frontiers in science.

In summary, Vale is a company that innovates. Like others in our sector, we're continually looking at new ways of doing things in order to raise our level of performance in terms of safety, sustainability, and productivity. As a few examples have illustrated today, partnership with the government has been very helpful to accelerate our efforts in certain areas. Whether those partnerships involve funding for the commercialization of a new technology such as hydromet, or supporting an initiative like JETA to scale up to meet the training needs of indigenous people, government can be a catalyst in helping companies move an idea from concept to application. We believe that this is a role that the Government of Canada can continue to play with respect to the mining sector.

I thank you for your time this morning. I look forward to our discussion.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much, Ms. Robson.

Mr. Serré, you're first up.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Robson, for your presentation today. I also thank you for elaborating on and looking at the past 10 years, the $10-billion investment in Canada, the $1 billion on the environment in the project that you referred to, the indigenous investment all across the country, from Thompson to Sudbury to Newfoundland, as far Voisey's Bay, and also SNOLAB, which is very important. We haven't really talked about the Nobel Prize and SNOLAB and the involvement that Vale, as an active mine, has in the SNOLAB laboratory part of that.

When you talked about innovation, you referred to CEMI. There are a lot of R and D projects. One of the things that we want to try to expand is employment. For every mining job, there are three or four created in the supply and services industry. On the commercialization aspect, can you expand on that role, on how important it is for Vale and CEMI to look at that commercialization? How can we expand that aspect to create more jobs?

10:05 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Angie Robson

I think it's hugely important. We can look at hydromet, for example, with regard to the commercialization of that technology and the resulting jobs now created in Newfoundland and Labrador.

When we talk about CEMI and our operations in Sudbury, I think what's really working there is the cluster approach that we've taken, and that's evolved over the years. I think it's really helping companies, not only companies like Vale but also in our supply and service sector, to commercialize technology and export it all around the world. It really takes four key components to make that successful.

One, obviously, is that you need to have the resource base there, and we certainly do in Sudbury. Second, you have to deliberately build a supply and service sector that can provide companies like ours with a competitive advantage. In northern Ontario now, there are about 500 companies that employ about 20,000 people, so it's significant. That sector employs more than we in the mining companies do ourselves, so it's very important.

Third, I would say, is having the educational facilities nearby and investing in them to make sure that they're training the next generation of workers, whether it be at our operations or in the supply and service sector. I think there are 75 different training components, when you look at Laurentian University, Collège Boréal, and Cambrian College, that focus specifically on mining. Then, the fourth component, I would say, is R and D, with organizations such as CEMI and MIRARCO being focused and working with mining companies, the supply and service sector, and the academic institutions to really foster and create those technologies that are going to continue to make sure Canada is a premier mining jurisdiction.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you for that.

Also, when you talk about the environmental role, at the time, Inco played a massive role in acid rain reductions and in the regreening of the area, and in looking at this worldwide.

Can you expand on the role of the Vale Living with Lakes Centre? They also won several awards for the environment. It's now named after Vale. Can you expand on that component, on the role of the company, and the research aspect on the environment?

10:10 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Angie Robson

We've been mining in Sudbury for more than 100 years, and there's no doubt that there are legacy issues that we have to address. Certainly, regulations have come a long way, and we have, too, in terms of our approach to the environment. We accept that it's our responsibility to address those. I would say that probably now more than ever we're addressing those responsibilities.

When we talk about funding and innovation, it's not only from a technological and commercial sense; it's also in terms of the environment. For example, as emissions have come down in Sudbury, we've seen that the lakes have really responded and come back. It was important to us to invest in a centre like the Vale Living with Lakes Centre to support that research and to make sure that we were doing what we needed to do when it comes to our local lakes and rivers.

The good news is that it seems the restoration has been very successful in Sudbury, so now the Vale Living with Lakes Centre is actually focusing a lot of research in the Ring of Fire and making sure that they're taking that baseline data and research to make sure that, eventually, when things do progress there, they have that baseline data.

It's been a great investment. Again, working with our academic partners is very important to us, and it's something that we'll continue to do.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

In the last two minutes I have, I want to get your perspective. Bob Rae came here to discuss the Ring of Fire and its potential. I know that Vale doesn't have any specific rights to it, but how important is it to develop the Ring of Fire for the Canadian economy, for Vale, and for the mining industry worldwide?

10:10 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Angie Robson

Yes, absolutely. We're not involved directly in the Ring of Fire, but we certainly hope that things develop and progress there. It's good for the industry. It's good for Canada. It's good for our communities.

Certainly, we're prepared to play as much of a supporting role as we can. I think it's very important for the economy, and we certainly hope that things develop there.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

On the innovation side, we heard Goldcorp talk about all-battery mines. How do you play a role with respect to batteries or looking at the reduction of diesel in some of the mining operations in that regard?

10:10 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Angie Robson

Yes, certainly as we look to move toward a lower-carbon economy, it's something that we're looking at very closely. We do have electric vehicles at our Coleman Mine, which is one of our largest mines in Sudbury. Battery-powered vehicles and infrastructure are certainly something that we're looking more towards. We're looking very closely at what Goldcorp is doing. It's having great success.

It's going to require a lot of investment on our part when we look at the magnitude and size of our fleet, but in terms of diesel-powered vehicles underground, it's something that we're going to have to move away from. It's an area, frankly, where we hope we can perhaps work with the local government to help us make that transition. In a capital-constrained environment like this, it's difficult for us, but it's something that we're going to have move towards and we're going have to do.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Just quickly, does Vale have any experience on nuclear in small mining operations around the world? Has there been any connection with small-scale nuclear?

10:10 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Angie Robson

No, not that I'm aware of, not in Canada certainly. I'm not aware of anywhere else around the world.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

That's perfect. Thank you.

Ms. Stubbs.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

My understanding is that in July the Government of Ontario announced new air quality standards across the province, but those standards don't apply equally to everyone, and eight companies were given exemptions from those standards, some of which last as long as a decade.

I wonder if you could walk us through, on the first hand, the several exemptions that the operation in Sudbury was provided. I understand that one of those exemptions allows it to emit 25 times more nickel than the provincial standard. Could you walk us through the exemptions that your operation is allowed?

Also, I wonder if you could comment on what you would say, then, in response to environmental groups or other advocates who would make the claim that allowing exemptions to these standards is uneven and potentially unfair, and also, whether or not it removes the incentive for companies such as Vale for meeting those tough new standards, and how you would rationalize that.

10:15 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

Angie Robson

Thank you for the question.

There's no doubt, as I've said, that we're a 100-year-old operation in Sudbury and addressing our legacy issues does take time when you look at the magnitude and scope of our operations.

I can tell you that our Clean AER project, which we're spending a billion dollars on and is nearing completion, was designed specifically to address some of those standards. We are reducing our SO2 emissions by 85% to get into compliance. It's a billion dollars on a project that isn't necessarily going to result in any new nickel, but we're willing to make that investment because it is important to us that we're seen to be a company that's responsible and is addressing our obligations.

In terms of nickel, in addition to the billion dollars we're spending on our Clean AER project, we just completed a $70-million project at our Copper Cliff nickel refinery this year to address nickel standards, again to make sure that we get into compliance with the new standards, but frankly, it's a challenge for us.

For example, recently there have been discussions about the SO2 standards being lowered even more. We're in a situation where we're trying to complete a project to get into compliance and the government is discussing reducing the standard even further, so it's a journey for us. It's continuous improvement. We are very transparent about site-specific standards that do require public consultation, but we're doing the work to get us there.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thank you for that.

Yes, it seems to me that most responsible natural resource developers and miners in Canada constantly seek to improve sustainability and responsible development within their operations. I have no doubt that it's the same for you.

From my perspective, as you can imagine, I believe that the best way for that to happen is actually for the government to reduce cost burdens in, as you point out, a capital-cost-constrained environment, in order to allow more of the resources to stay in the operations themselves so that they can unleash innovation and continue to improve their track record. I think it does seem problematic, though, that a government would set sweeping standards for the industry and operators right across the province and then allow some exemptions. I appreciate your explanation of that.

On the issue of the provincial government's cap-and-taxing system, where they have this plan to price carbon at $18 per tonne and then cap total emissions at about 142 megatonnes per year.... Is that right?

10:15 a.m.

Manager, Corporate and Aboriginal Affairs, Ontario Operations, Vale Canada Ltd.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Again, there we understand that some of Ontario's largest industries are getting free allocations and exemptions from that system, and that includes Vale in Sudbury. Overall, this is actually an explanation that I think governments and public policy-makers really need to give and to be accountable for, but I think it seems odd.

Could you comment on why should it be that smaller operators, small industries, or individuals and families are bearing the costs of what will ultimately be increased costs for everything for everybody, particularly for people in rural, remote, and northern communities, which are exactly the kinds of communities we're discussing? Why should all of those people have to bear the costs of the carbon tax and adjust to these extra costs, when larger emitters like Vale are given, at least in this case, a free pass because of the government decision-making?