Natural Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. I appreciate the quick response.

I'll go back to you, Ms. Scharf, because I think there are a few other things you want to address here.

On part of the transition, the vulnerable sectors we're talking about here account for, I'm told, 70% of Canada's export goods. That's what we're talking about. This employs over 800,000 Canadians, and somehow we're going to price ourselves at a disadvantage to our competition in some respects.

How do you think we're going to have an export economy if we continue to drift this way? We don't have, in Canada, closed borders at this point in time. How will this affect our export industries?

[Debbie Scharf]

Perhaps what I can say is that the Government of Canada is making quite a number of strategic investments, of many billions of dollars, in fact. There have been a number of different numbers quoted, from the $9 billion in the most recent emissions reduction plan to the $100 billion in previous plans. These investments are to help the clean energy economy get built up and for other natural resource sectors to be part of the net-zero economy, and to strengthen those sectors and create jobs.

There are quite a number of investments being made across the country to help build clean energy systems and help Canadians use clean energy.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

One of the things you talk about here is sustainability. Let's talk about sustainability from an economic perspective. Number one, we're going to give up our export business in Canada, but on sustainability, the government continues to throw money at this, and every one of those hundred billion dollars you're talking about is money that comes from the taxpayers.

“Sustainability” means that eventually these jobs will have to pay for themselves. Right now, none of these jobs pay for themselves. They are continually subsidized, both at the production level and at the consumption level, by the Government of Canada. How do you think this is sustainable going forward?

[Debbie Scharf]

All I can say is, look, there are investments being made to build important industries that are going to be part of the net-zero future. The work we're doing on the just transition is to help make sure that we have the right workers in place for the jobs that are going to be there and available, and we have to—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

You realize that, number one, they're mostly in provincial jurisdiction that we're talking about. You're allocating money, but at the same time, you haven't actually looked at where they're going be affected province by province. There are some holes in what you're doing here. You're already allocating money without—as my colleague pointed out earlier—actually indicating where that money might be spent or on what sectors, so a little macro before we're actually dealing with the details....

I'm going to echo what my colleague Ms. Jones said. We're looking at so many consultations with the public of Canada here that they're confused about what you're actually doing with this government. You have how many different levers that you're pushing on the Canadian people? What business is looking for government to do here is provide some kind of balance, some kind of actual base going forward, something so businesses can say, “This is what the landscape looks like going forward.”

Do you have any comment?

[Debbie Scharf]

There is an emissions reductions plan—

Oh, I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You can finish your thought there, and then we'll move on to our next speaker.

[Debbie Scharf]

Okay. The emissions reduction plan, which was released last week, provides a blueprint for how we're going to get to 2030. So there is information around the types of actions and activities that are going to take place and the types of questions that still need to be answered. The just transition consultation will support that to help us understand how to bring the jobs, the workers and the communities to where they need to be as we move to net zero.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's great. Thank you.

We're now going to move to Ms. Lapointe.

You'll have the floor for five minutes of questions.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

My question is for Ms. Scharf.

We know other countries and regions have already implemented just transition policies, and some are considered best practices. Has the Government of Canada consulted those jurisdictions and reviewed their policies?

[Debbie Scharf]

Thank you for the question.

In fact, we have looked at a number of other countries, including the ones that are leading and the ones that are taking more concise or narrower approaches to the just transition. There are many on the list, from Scotland and the U.K. to Germany and the EU. Absolutely, we have looked at those. In fact, some of them are world leaders, in particular Scotland, and we've taken our cue from some of the things they've done, which we have tried to bring into our thinking here in Canada.

We're absolutely aware of what's happening internationally.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

What are some of the policies those countries have implemented that are demonstrating measured positive outcomes?

[Debbie Scharf]

I'm going to turn that over to my colleague Roisin Reid, who can perhaps speak about Scotland or some of the other leading jurisdictions for some lessons learned.

[Roisin Reid]

Thanks, Debbie.

Scotland has included a set of just transition principles to guide their government's climate action in their climate change legislation, similar to what Canada is looking at doing with the proposal we have put forward in our discussion paper. They've also established a just transition commission, which is mandated to undertake broad consultations and social dialogue. That was established in 2018, and it just recently released its final report to the Scottish ministers in March 2021. It proposed 24 different recommendations for government to constitute a framework for government policies and actions on a just transition. It's been fairly well received by the Scottish public, and it has been supported by what they call their “green new deal”, which came out in 2020. It is a three-billion-pound package of investments through the Scottish National Investment Bank in order to attract more finance to clean-energy industries.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

My next question is for Mr. Brown.

In your opening statement, you mentioned two items that I would like to get some more information and some details on. One is the clean jobs training centre and the other is the sectoral workforce solutions program. Can you inform this committee on those two initiatives?

[Andrew Brown]

Sure. Thanks for the question.

First of all, I would just mention that of course there are some existing programs in place that we would be looking at making use of and leveraging to support workers who would be affected through just transition, but we're also taking a look at exactly those programs—the sectoral workforce solutions program and the clean jobs training centre.

I think the sectoral workforce solutions program is well placed to contribute to just transition, as it supports key sectors of the economy, including sectors linked to the low-carbon economy, and to implement solutions to address current and emerging workforce needs through training and upskilling initiatives. It will also help workers transition from sectors in decline to high-growth sectors. I think it's important that among those eligible to apply for the sectoral workforce solutions programs funding are a range of sectoral stakeholders, including for-profit and non-profit organizations, indigenous organizations, provinces and territories.

To speak about the clean jobs training centre, perhaps I could turn it over to Chris Bates.

[Chris Bates]

Sure. Just quickly on that, we're really in the early stages of working on the implementation of that commitment. We're consulting stakeholders, both through NRCan's just transition consultations and otherwise, to look at how we can support different courses and training opportunities, with a focus on equity-deserving groups to make sure they can be part of Canada's just transition.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We are now going to go to Monsieur Simard, who has two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Scharf, one of your earlier responses made me raise my eyebrows somewhat. You said that one of the principles guiding the reflection process was a robust economy.

I don't have anything against that. Far from it. However, it gives me the impression that the relative importance of workers and environmental groups will be much lower than the importance of the industry.

I'd like to know who received an invitation. Did the department invite any stakeholders to comment? I'm talking about an invitation from the department, and not about the consultation that you referred to earlier.

Has the department invited any stakeholders to speak about its just transition bill? If so, who are these stakeholders?

[Debbie Scharf]

I'm going to turn that question over to Roisin Reid.

[Roisin Reid]

We've had two sessions so far with labour representatives. We believe they are an important part of representing the interests of workers in the new economy. Our first meeting with them was with national unions, and our second meeting was with provincial federations of labour.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Will oil and gas companies be invited to participate in future meetings? Yes? Okay.

I want to read a quote that struck me today. It comes from the Secretary General of the United Nations, Mr. Gutteres:

Climate activists are sometimes depicted as dangerous radicals. But the truly dangerous radicals are the countries that are increasing the production of fossil fuels. Investing in new fossil fuels infrastructure is moral and economic madness.

I'm repeating this quote because, for the past 15 years, the federal government has very rarely listened to social and environmental movements. However, we know that the federal government listens carefully to a strong oil and gas lobby.

Isn't your consideration of the just transition somewhat tainted by the wishes of oil and gas producers?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

If anyone wants to make a brief comment, they're welcome to, but we are out of time on this one. I want to make sure we get through as many other rounds as possible.

[Debbie Scharf]

Perhaps the only thing I will say is that we are committed to consulting with a broad range of Canadians. This is an area where social dialogue is important. Therefore, we're taking the maximum opportunity to engage with the maximum number of Canadians possible through various means.