Natural Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time, but we will be coming back to Monsieur Simard if he wants to pick that up or if anybody wants to respond at that point.

Now we're going to move over to Mr. Angus for his first six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for your participation in this very important study.

I come from northern Ontario. I've seen what transition can be when it is unjust. We have lost all our silver and iron jobs in my community. They never came back. When Elliot Lake went down, we knew what was happening. We knew the dates on which the mines would close. We knew where we were going to be to the very last mine. It was devastating but it was focused. This is much more complex.

Ms. Scharf, I want to ask you a bit about that complexity. You said that this transition “is not about phasing out any industry; it is about...finding new ways to adapt to the changing market.” Is that to say that part of the natural resources department's plan is to work on supporting exports for oil and gas, as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers has suggested?

[Debbie Scharf]

What we're trying to do with the just transition is to engage Canadians in understanding how to put together a plan, an approach, a set of principles that will help guide decision-making in the future, regardless of which type of clean energy pathways take us to net zero. When we understand that there will be opportunities and there will be impacts—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but I only have six minutes. To adapt to changing markets, it has been suggested to us that exporting to the global south or exporting with competitors would be one of those approaches.

Is that part of what you're factoring in?

[Debbie Scharf]

As I said previously, there are going to be many different approaches to get to net zero, many different pathways, which I know the committee is well aware of, from clean energy production to zero-emission vehicles and energy efficiency. Those pathways are going to depend on the choices that are made globally by other countries, as well as the choices made by Canada. We have to be ready for that, and we have to understand how to adapt our workers to be able to have the right skills at the right time for the jobs of the future.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

The Canada Energy Regulator said that even factoring in carbon pricing and others, we're looking at an increase of 1.2 million barrels a day in the coming years. In terms of the transition, would that be something that your department has factored in?

[Debbie Scharf]

From a just transition perspective, what we are trying to do right now is to consult Canadians and to hear from as many Canadians as possible about the approaches that we want to take to guide the decisions we have to make in the future around how to have an inclusive and equitable future for workers and communities.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I get that. I just don't know that you need to be asking the ordinary Canadian whether or not we're on track to make 1.2 million barrels a day. That's something the industry would know.

Have you factored that in? That's what our regulator is saying. Is that something that is part of your planning?

[Debbie Scharf]

Our planning is focused on the question around just transition. It's focused on talking to workers and Canadians across the country around how we can create a fair and equitable future for everyone. That's really what we're focused on—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Listen, I get it.

[Debbie Scharf]

—in these consultations we're—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm there with you. I'm just trying to get a sense of.... We're factoring in the economics here.

Today, the IPCC released its latest report and it says, “It's now or never” to avert irreversible climate breakdown. They're saying that greenhouse gas emissions must peak by 2025. That's in three years. They say that this is a final warning to government. That's a game-changer. That's right out of that Netflix movie about the comet.

Has the government factored in that quick of a response that we have to make on the international stage to avert a climate catastrophe?

[Debbie Scharf]

There is definitely a scientific and economic imperative around reducing emissions, and the emissions reduction plan was announced just last week around how to address climate change and meet our 2030 objectives.

There is no question that the oil and gas sector is one important contributing sector. A quarter of the emissions in Canada in 2019 came from that sector. The emissions reduction plan provides a guidepost for how we're going to go forward, a blueprint for how we're going to go forward and guide actions to develop an oil and gas cap with consultation with stakeholders and others to get there.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

United Nations Secretary-General Guterres said that governments and businesses are “lying” in claiming to be on track to limit the damage to 1.5°C. I'm certainly not suggesting you're the one who is doing that. However, based on what your department has seen, there is no way, from looking at Mr. Guilbeault's plan, that we are going to meet what the IPCC is saying.

Mr. Guterres is saying that governments and businesses are failing us. Would that mean a revision, based on the IPCC...? Let me put it this way. I'm going to follow up on my Conservative colleague. With a report as devastating as this, would that be something that you would have an analysis of? Would you undertake an analysis of this to see whether or not Mr. Guilbeault's plan and the government's plan are anywhere close to being able to meet it?

If you don't have a plan or a response to that, why not? If you do, would you share it with our committee?

[Debbie Scharf]

What I can say is that the Government of Canada released its emissions reduction plan just last week, with an approach to—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But this report came out just this week.

[Debbie Scharf]

—how we're going to get to 2030.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Wouldn't it be reasonable, since we're talking about the future of our planet, that you guys would do an analysis so we can know whether we're going to make this or the comet is going to definitely hit us?

[Debbie Scharf]

We—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

If you'd like to take a few seconds to respond, I'll give you the ability to do that, or.... We're out of time on this one. I'm happy to move on to the next speaker as well.

Okay. We'll leave it there, Charlie, with your six minutes.

We're now going to go to Mr. McLean for five minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll ask the NRCan representative my questions first of all. I believe that is Ms. Scharf.

In July 2021, NRCan did a consultation paper, “People-Centred Just Transition”. In July 2021, Parliament was not sitting, and it ended in August 2021, so no politicians, no elected public officials, had any input on this study, yet you're confident that the paper you came out with actually had the input of Canadians. It was open for a very short time.

Can you please explain, number one, the timing? Number two, can you table that in the House of Commons, as far as its thinness of input goes, from what you've received?

[Debbie Scharf]

In July 2021, we launched the consultation around the just transition legislation.

I may ask my colleague Roisin Reid to confirm that the document in question is in fact the discussion paper that was released.

Yes, that is in fact the discussion paper that was released. The discussion paper was really to prompt discussion and engagement with a whole host of Canadians and stakeholders around what should be in the legislation. That was the purpose it played.

It continues to be in the public domain, and we continue to seek input from Canadians. We've received over 17,000 submissions so far. The comment period is open until the end of April. In addition, we are—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Let's go to that, then. It's a little deeper than the question we have time for here.

Let's ask about that 17,000. When you wrote this document on March 30, it was 16,000. Are you saying that there are 17,000 individual types of responses? Or are they a bunch of form letters that you're getting in your office?

[Debbie Scharf]

I'm going to pass that over to Roisin Reid, who will be able to comment on that, please.

[Roisin Reid]

Yes, there are a number of form letters and letter-writing campaigns that are part of that number. I couldn't—