Natural Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Angus, it's over to you now for two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think one thing that's really important to recognize is that the transition is happening. It can be either a clear transition or a chaotic transition.

Particularly in oil and gas, it is a very complex industry. The workers are very different. What you have upstream is many fly-in contract workers. They might work for seven months of the year and then not work the rest of the year. Midstream, you're looking after pipelines. The downstream, value-added jobs are jobs that are going to be there for a long time, no matter what happens. In construction, we've already seen a real loss, and construction was driving a lot of the western boom for so long.

Mr. Brown, I've been in the IBEW training centre in Edmonton. They've been training their workers for years. They've been saying, “We're ready for transition. Where is the government?” Are you willing to work to make sure that these worker training centres are able to train workers while they're still employed, so that if there is a bump, they can make the choice to make the transition and not have to wait until the transition hits them?

[Andrew Brown]

Thanks for the question.

I wonder, Chris, if you could help out in terms of responding. I'm thinking about some of the other work that's going on with unions as well, in terms of preparing workers.

[Chris Bates]

Yes, for sure.

I think that's exactly what we're trying to do with the ESDC programming, to actually look at some of our current suite of programming and how we can do that. We have a union training and innovation program already.

One of the things we recently did with that was to put a priority on purchasing equipment and materials that support the development of environmental skills in the Red Seal trades. That's already looking at putting equipment in the hiring halls, so that people would be able to train on what's more green—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I interrupted because I only have two and a half minutes and I just want to augment that point.

The issue that happens with transition is that the workers aren't able to transition to get trained until they've lost their jobs, and that's when the devastation happens. Are you willing to put in place, and are you putting in place now, training to upgrade, so that, through their union, the workers can move out of that sector if they so choose?

The other issue is them being able to get their certification. A lot of people come into the industry and work their way up. Some of them don't have certification to be able to move. Can they get that now, so they're not waiting until a site goes down?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

If somebody wants to respond briefly, I'll give them a bit of time here.

[Chris Bates]

I think what we're trying to do is to recognize that some workers only need a certain amount of skills to upgrade or transition to certain jobs because they're already building off the existing skill sets they have.

That's what we're trying to do through both the union training and innovation program and the sectoral program. It's not asking people to go back to school for a huge length of time, but to build from the skill sets they have so that they can be successful in making transitions as we transition to a low-carbon economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you.

Now we're going to go to Mr. Bragdon.

You have five minutes for your questions.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's an honour to be here with each of you and all the witnesses. I think it's my first opportunity to ask some questions in the natural resources committee—and I count it as an honour—on behalf of many of the workers from coast to coast who have huge concerns about their employment and the future of their employment opportunities going forward.

I want to go back to a point, and I'll ask Ms. Scharf this question.

To the best of your knowledge, have the nine other top energy-producing countries in the world, namely the United States, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, the UAE, Brazil and Kuwait, implemented an emissions cap for the oil and gas sectors? Are you aware of that, yes or no?

[Debbie Scharf]

Unfortunately, I don't have the information to be able to answer that question, but it's certainly something we can come back to the committee with afterwards.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I think it's pertinent for us to know what other jurisdictions and energy-producing nations are doing on that front, and what measures they're putting in place.

We do know—and you can correct me if I'm wrong—that a neighbouring jurisdiction saw an increase in energy production in recent years, increased their exports and actually increased their capacity for energy development, while at the same time reducing their carbon footprint. That's in comparison to our own country in a similar period of time. Is that true or not true?

[Debbie Scharf]

The question isn't specific enough. I'm not sure what jurisdiction you're referring to, but we could certainly come back with that information if you provide a bit more specificity on the jurisdiction.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

My understanding—and I think it's public, Ms. Scharf—is that the United States increased its energy output, became energy-independent and exported more, but at the same time has reduced its carbon footprint at a greater rate per capita than Canada has over the last six years. I would love to see the research on that, and what information and data the government may have collected in regard to that. If you can get back to us, that would be most appreciated. Thank you.

I would also like to ask what the key risks of this low-carbon transition are, particularly for our rural communities. Our rural communities are facing increased challenges with this transition. As we know, with the implementation of the carbon tax, it disproportionately affects those living in rural communities and small towns.

What does this transition mean for jobs in our rural communities across the west and throughout the country, including in my region of Atlantic Canada, like Newfoundland? Has there been consideration of that?

[Debbie Scharf]

Coming back to the types of issues we're trying to cover, I think these are the aspects we're looking to understand as part of the just transition consultations, which are around how you get the right workers for the right jobs, how you make sure you're inclusive of all Canadians, both those living in the city and those in rural and remote communities, and how you minimize the impact on workers and communities. In particular, there are communities that rely on certain types of industries that perhaps could be impacted by the net-zero transition.

All of these issues are part and parcel of what it is we'd like to hear about from Canadians to help shape where we go on the just transition legislation and the actions after that.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

In the context of this and the just transition, what we're hearing, it seems, and what I'm hearing, increasingly so, from Canadians is that with what's happening geopolitically and internationally there is a desire to get more Canadian energy to world markets to displace dictator oil and dictator energy with good, democratic energy that is produced under some of the most stringent environmental regulations on the entire planet. I think the Canadian energy sector has a great story to tell.

Yes, we're for all of the above and we're all for transitioning and having good, clean technologies emerge, but in the meantime, and for the foreseeable future, it seems like the world is desiring energy. It needs energy to function. Would it not be good for our plans to envelop and incorporate continued production of Canadian energy, getting those products to market and protecting jobs in our rural communities across the country? Is that not worthy of consideration?

[Debbie Scharf]

At Natural Resources Canada, the government has made significant investments in clean energy. I can point you to programs like the clean fuels fund, which is helping to de-risk investments in clean fuels production across the country, and our programs to help produce clean electricity, smart grids and renewable energy. There are billions of dollars being put to good use to help de-risk these types of investments so that Canada can keep producing or produce even more clean energy that not only will service our domestic emissions reduction objectives but also will service global markets for their clean energy needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Mr. Maloney, we're going to move to you. You have five minutes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today, on the first of many days of this very interesting and incredibly important study.

I had some concerns going into this study that we're starting today, because the utopian view of the world, as I think everybody around this table would agree, is that what we want is an economy and a world where we all have good, high-paying jobs, we're all able to drive the kinds of cars we want, we're all able to heat our homes and we're able to do all these things at an affordable price. The only problem is that we don't live in a utopian world, so we're in a situation here where we're talking about a just transition and where we have a whole variety of competing interests. My concern was that this study was going to descend into a picking apart of little pieces of it here and there, and I think we've already started down that path. I'm probably going to do it myself at some point, so I'm not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, just to be clear.

Part of the problem, in my view, is that when you start talking about this, you're using words like “pathways” and you talk about “principles”, and you use all this other lingo that we constantly hear so much, and the average person doesn't understand what that means. I'm not sure that some of the people using those words necessarily know what it means either, to be honest.

My question to you is, assuming my premise is correct that we all want to live in this utopian world, how do we approach this discussion using language that's going to appeal to people so that they understand it, grasp it and buy into it?

I didn't think anybody was going jump at that one, but....

[Debbie Scharf]

Perhaps one thing I can say is that we are spending a lot of time talking to Canadians right now. We have put some text, some proposals, in front of them to seek their feedback, and I think what we hear from them is going to be important. We will hear from them whether or not the words make sense. We will hear from them whether or not the words are focusing on the right things. We will hear whether the actions are focusing on the right things.

We will have a “what we heard” report that is going to be published this summer. We will take all of the information from the round tables, the letters and the input we've received and try to put together a summary of what Canadians are saying on this topic. We are doing some work to understand some of the things that you are raising right now to make sure that it's meaningful and that we're moving in the right direction. We just need a bit more time to get through that process.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

That's helpful, because I want to get away from a situation where we have people hauling out reports that were too thin and then, on the other hand, people saying that all politicians aren't telling the truth and so on.

What I want to focus on is, where are these jobs that are going to replace the ones we have now? The reality is that our economy is very reliant on the oil and gas sector. Can you tell me what the major growth areas are—the fastest-growth areas—in the clean energy field that can give some people some encouragement, so that they can see some light at the end of the tunnel?

[Debbie Scharf]

I'm wondering if my colleagues from ESDC would like to take a start at that question.

[Andrew Brown]

Chris, I don't know if you're able to jump in there in terms of some of the sectors that are growing or projected to grow the most over the next period of time.

[Chris Bates]

Yes, we have a bit of data on that. With the sectoral program, we put an emphasis on sectors that are going to be significantly impacted by just transition: the agriculture sector, the clean technology sector, construction, natural resources and environment, as well as the transportation sector. We're looking at those from different perspectives. For example, with the construction sector, we know that building retrofits are going to substantially change some of the jobs and impact jobs. We're going to need people to do all these retrofits that are planned, but there are going to be different skill sets, such as those of a pipe fitter, for example, to do different parts of the construction.

We're looking at how we can equip workers with the skills they need to successfully make that transition and ensure that we have workers in place to do those jobs.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I have about 10 seconds left, so I'll leave this ask on the table: Can you make it as simple and clear as possible and identify the areas of growth so people can understand it? Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Continuing right on with our discussion, we're going to go over to Mr. Melillo.

You'll have five minutes for this round of questions and answers.