Natural Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now, Mr. Angus, you'll get your last two and a half minutes. It's over to you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Seeing as I'm extremely well known as “Mr. Congeniality” here in the chamber and all across parts of Canada, I am going to give my time to our guest, who comes here faithfully every week, and let him ask some questions.

I'll turn it over to the Greens.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

I want to start by recognizing the incredible work that organizations like the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives have already done to go beyond the talk of principles and to get into specifics. As I'm sure witnesses know, it put together a report last April that called for very specific legislation and funding for a just transition fund, a just transition benefit for affected workers, and a just transition territorial and provincial transfer in the order of $16.5 billion.

What we also saw last week, as has been referred to a few times, is a so-called emissions reduction plan that includes in it a new tax credit for carbon capture, a subsidy, in the order of $50 billion.

My question is about the pace of how we intend to and can transition in this just transition and support affected workers. Specifically, I'm curious whether any witnesses can comment on the impact of further subsidizing the oil and gas industry to the tune of $50 billion a year. How does that affect any plans towards a just transition for workers? Can any witnesses comment on that?

[Debbie Scharf]

What I can say is that when it comes to just transition, there is definitely a need to balance that with urgency. I think there's an understanding that there's a need to move swiftly on climate action but also to balance that with the need to take time to consult Canadians. There's absolutely a tension point there.

I've mentioned the words “social dialogue” several times in my discourse over the last hour and a half, and that's because Canadians care very deeply about this issue, as do parliamentarians and others, because it really is very central to us as human beings. So, we're trying to get the balance right between acting with urgency and taking the time to consult.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

I think I have 20 seconds left, so I will ask a follow-up question.

Are you concerned at all, from a public service point of view, when you hear about a subsidy at that scale? To what extent do you feel it would slow down our progress towards a just transition, if at all?

[Debbie Scharf]

All I can comment on is what we're trying to accomplish with our work around just transition, which is hearing from Canadians about how we could best get this right.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now, Mr. Maguire, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I'm going to cede that to my colleague Mr. McLean.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you for that, my colleague.

I'm going to go back to Ms. Scharf.

We started about the 800,000 Canadians who are going to be displaced—the people who are producing goods in Canada. We haven't even talked about agriculture and how that's going to be affected here, and I presume that's in addition to the 800,000. The report you referred to talks about 640,000 new subsidized jobs in these new clean energy economies. So we're going to lose 800,000, plus we're going to make all of our industries inefficient, and we're going to gain 640,000.

Can you please show me how that math goes around? It's not a hard question.

[Debbie Scharf]

It's not that it's a hard question. I'm just having a bit of trouble following where all of these numbers are coming from, so I'm having a hard time commenting.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

The 640,000 is from Clean Energy Canada's “The New Reality” report, which you quoted when you spoke today. The 800,000 is in the report we have here about 70% of Canada's goods exports employing 800,000 Canadians who will be affected by this transition.

[Debbie Scharf]

I have not read either of those reports in great detail. I would perhaps—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yet you quote it in your report here.

[Debbie Scharf]

Yes—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

All right. It's a headline for you, as opposed to an actual understanding.

[Debbie Scharf]

No, that's not it.

The reason why I quoted the Clean Energy Canada report, as well as the RBC analysis, was to provide some indications around the types of modelling that have been done in Canada around the types of opportunities that could be coming in the clean energy transition, as well as those reports being places where evidence and analysis could be brought to bear for this particular committee to look at where those opportunities may be.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

Let's go back to some of what you've raised here. I appreciate that some of my colleagues have noted that there are words here that don't mean anything to anybody. They're just strung-together phrases on paper, and we do need to analyze these to see where Canadians are going, because they are used to seeing the officials in Ottawa continue to say things that they cannot deliver on. Words coming out of people's mouths and the way they affect people's lives are two different things.

I do know that I hear you talk about this: “Smart investors know that the opportunities of the future will need to be low-carbon”. If I may ask, just as a quick one, where are the smart investors making money today? I think the smart investors you're talking about are the ones who are being pushed by government to disinvest in actual profitable and sustainable industries. Do you have any comment?

[Debbie Scharf]

The reference to “smart investors” is referring to a number of markets and industries that are growing significantly across the globe. I can quote you a few stats off the top of my head in looking at critical minerals, hydrogen and clean power production, where there are billions of dollars of investment moving in that space, because they do offer the opportunity to provide low- and zero-carbon energy. Investors are making decisions to move into those industries.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Smart investors go counter-cyclical as opposed to cyclical, and they don't follow the herd, but we'll go through that some other time.

In your report, you say that “the energy transition ahead of us is not about 'phasing out' any industry; it is about industries making changes, reducing carbon intensity and finding new ways to adapt to the changing market.” I think that's where industry wants us to be, and I appreciate that you put that in your report, but then, three points later, you jump to this: “We know that some who work in high-carbon industries may lose their jobs, but we also know that Canadian workers who built our current energy systems have the know-how, the ingenuity and the work ethic to see them thrive in green energy jobs.”

Now, do you have any idea what those green energy jobs are at this point in time?

[Debbie Scharf]

I believe we have gotten to that question....

I'm sorry. I hear an echo of myself.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I think you're good. We're not getting an echo, unless you're finding it distracting.

[Debbie Scharf]

It has actually been fixed. Thank you very much.

I think we have talked several times over this line of questioning about where those clean energy jobs or green jobs are. I'm talking about zero-emission vehicles, clean power production, clean energy like hydrogen production and biofuels, and critical minerals. These are going to be the types of industries where [Technical difficulty—Editor] in trades and construction we're going to see those jobs being created.

I would like to point out that—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. I do bristle at this sort of “We're going to run towards green mining.”

If I have a few extra seconds here, Mr. Chair, because there was that echo there, I'd appreciate it.

You talk about the Atlantic loop and the clean fuels fund without mentioning the GHG footprint associated with so-called clean fuels. You also talk about sustainability here. When I was in the IEA, Jennifer Granholm had the same narrative that you have here, which is, effectively, that there are more jobs paying more money but there's no cost to the consumer at the end of the day.

I'm going to suggest that's a narrative and a math that doesn't work. This will be much more expensive. If the utopia you're talking about of better jobs paying more is actually on the horizon, this is actually going to cost Canadians a lot of money.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're at the end of time for that round, but we have a bit of time on the clock here. If anybody would like to respond to the closing statement, I'm willing to give you the floor before we go to our final questioner for this afternoon.

Seeing nobody rushing for the mike—it's not like we're on a game show—I will then go to Mr. Chahal, who will have his five minutes for what I believe will be our final round of questions here, given the time.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today and the great conversation on this very important topic.

We are having this topic because in many provinces across the country we haven't taken diversification seriously. Alberta, which is my home, is a prime example. We've lived off the great revenues that the energy sector has provided, but we haven't invested back into our communities with new jobs and economic diversification.

This is a great opportunity to continue to make Alberta and western Canada an energy leader. I think being an energy leader, of all things energy, is what we should be focusing on: on the great aspects of our economy that are going to still provide us with a lot of energy for many years to come, but also on growing other sources of energy, which are going to be critical to meeting our goals and making sure we have a diversified and sustainable economy.

With regard to my first question, we're looking at Germany and some of the other nations that preceded us on this just transition in getting off coal. What are some lessons learned? I read in the report that they talk a little bit about focusing on regional economic development rather than direct financial supports. Is that the approach we're taking here, or are we looking at a combination of both to meet our goals with the transition?