Natural Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting on the study of creating a fair and equitable Canadian energy transformation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members can attend both in person and by Zoom. For everybody who is here, including witnesses, now that we're in session, no screenshots or photos are permitted. As per the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on March 10, 2022, all those attending the meeting in person must wear a mask, except for members who are at their place during the proceedings.

I have a few comments for members and everybody who is here.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when not speaking. For those on Zoom, there is a choice for interpretation of floor, English or French. Those attending in person can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. All comments should be addressed through the chair. For anybody joining us virtually, if you'd like to speak, please use the “raise hand” function, and I will do my best, with the assistance of the clerk, to figure out the speaking order should any hands be raised.

I think today we have all of our regular members. Mr. Morrice, I'd like to welcome you to our group.

Before we get started hearing opening statements, we need to adopt a budget for this new study, since this is the first meeting of the new study. We've distributed a budget to everybody. The proposed budget is in the amount of $11,925 to cover this study. It essentially covers the cost of phone lines and headsets required for our meetings.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt this budget?

(Motion agreed to)

In order to get the lists of witnesses lined up for when we're back from our constituency weeks—they're coming up after this week—we're proposing that we have this Friday as the deadline for our witness lists. If each of the parties could get its witness list for this study to the clerk by the end of Friday, it would be really helpful, so we'll have two weeks to get the panels organized.

Is somebody willing to put that motion, which we can then hopefully adopt? We'll have witnesses by this Friday. Is everybody in favour of that or supportive of it?

(Motion agreed to)

The clerk will send out the template and the request, and if everybody could work with their respective teams to get their lists in by end of day Friday, that would be really helpful.

With that, we are now getting into the study.

Larry, go ahead.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

Just on that, we're all here, or many of us are here in the chamber now. Is there any talk about allowing witnesses to be present in the chamber?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll check with our clerk.

Apparently there is not yet.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

We have about three weeks before we'll have witnesses, other than the ministers and those here today. I'll just throw it out there.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll check. I don't know if that's a Board of Internal Economy issue or who is making that decision.

I think for the budgets, we haven't included any travel at this point. For this study, we may end up being still primarily virtual unless we have witnesses such as ministers.

I hear your point. It would be nice to start seeing people in the room with us again.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Angus, go ahead before we get into introducing our witnesses.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I very strongly support my colleague. I think it's a really different dynamic in committee when we are able to see the witnesses, so I would ask if you could bring our concerns forward.

If they did agree to that and we were able to invite witnesses to come here, would that mean we'd have to adapt the budget?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We would have to amend the budget we've just approved.

We'll keep an eye out, and I will express that to the liaison committee.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chahal is having trouble getting into the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll keep an eye out. Mr. Chahal is trying to join us.

This is the first hearing on the study on creating a fair and equitable Canadian energy transformation.

For our panel today, we have the remainder of the time until 5:30.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Andrew Brown, senior assistant deputy minister, skills and employment branch; and Chris Bates, director general, apprenticeship and sectoral initiatives directorate. From the Department of Natural Resources, we have Debbie Scharf, associate assistant deputy minister, energy systems sector; Roisin Reid, director, energy and environment policy division; and Jasmine Redenbach, acting manager, energy and environment policy division.

Thank you to each of you. I assume that each of the departments will take one five-minute opening slot, and then we'll get right into our questions and answers.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, who is going to do the five-minute opening statement?

[Andrew Brown, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

I will be giving the opening statement for ESDC, but I believe my colleague from NRCan will be starting off today.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. I'm happy to go with that.

Natural Resources, we'll turn it over to you.

You have probably been here before. I have a quick-card system. I'll use yellow when there are 30 seconds left, and red when the time is up. Don't stop mid-sentence, but wind up your thought. That will apply when we're into the questions and answers as well.

Natural Resources, I'll start the clock at five minutes. We look forward to hearing from you.

[Debbie Scharf, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Systems Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, and thank you for inviting me here today. I'm pleased to be speaking to you from Ottawa, the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. My name is Debbie Scharf. As mentioned, I'm the associate assistant deputy minister of the energy systems sector at Natural Resources Canada.

Just transition is a policy approach that puts people at the centre of the Government of Canada's climate policy. To date, the government's actions on just transition have focused on phasing out coal-fired electricity generation, which has had a major impact on workers and communities in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. It has led the government to commit $185 million in budgets 2018 and 2019 towards economic diversification and skills development initiatives. This funding seeks to strengthen communities affected by the transition away from coal power, enabling their residents to pursue meaningful careers and enjoy a high quality of life for generations to come.

Today, the government is looking at the energy transition writ large, knowing that the world is moving to a low-carbon energy model. Canada has an opportunity to be an economic and innovative leader in a net-zero future. Government climate policy is not the only driver. Smart investors know that the opportunities of the future will need to be low-carbon, and we're already seeing investments shift away from high-carbon industries. So, too, the energy transition ahead of us is not about “phasing out” any industry; it is about industries making changes, reducing carbon intensity and finding new ways to adapt to the changing market.

Finally, the impacts of the transition will affect not only one industry or segment of workers. Oil and gas workers may pivot to hydrogen. Mechanics will learn about zero-emission vehicles. Construction workers will integrate the most energy-efficient building codes. All this means that just transition is about ensuring that Canadian workers have the skills and training they need to seize the opportunities created by the energy transition. We know that some who work in high-carbon industries may lose their jobs, but we also know that Canadian workers who built our current energy systems have the know-how, the ingenuity and the work ethic to see them thrive in green energy jobs.

The government is doing its best to make sure those jobs are available. My department is supporting energy projects in every region of Canada and creating jobs through programs like the greener homes grant, the clean fuels fund and our nuclear strategy.

We are looking at economic diversification by supporting the opportunities unique to each region and each sector, whether it's hydrogen in the Prairies, critical minerals in Quebec and Ontario or biofuels in British Columbia. In fact, because the clean energy sector is growing faster than the economy overall, we see the potential for skilled labour shortages in a number of those areas, including nuclear, green mining and energy efficiency. This means we need to attract young people to careers in the natural resources sectors and break down systemic barriers that have kept women and racialized Canadians out of employment in traditional energy jobs.

That is why the government is committed to introducing a just transition act, and why my department has begun working with experts and stakeholders to support the development of the legislation. Last July, we launched public consultations with a broad range of stakeholders, including workers and labour organizations, industry, academia, non-governmental organizations, youth and experts in skills training, diversity and inclusion. This is in addition to having meetings with provinces, territories and indigenous organizations. To date, we have received over 17,000 submissions, and we are still accepting written submissions until April 30. The proposed legislation will be guided by the feedback we receive from the consultation sessions and a “what we heard” report, which will be published once they are complete.

I look forward to sharing more information at this time and seeing the conclusions this committee will reach after meeting with officials and stakeholders. As mentioned, I'm pleased to be joined by my two colleagues, Roisin Reid and Jasmine Redenbach, and we will be pleased, at the right time, to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

Now we'll go to the representatives from Employment and Social Development for their opening five minutes. I'll just restart the clock here.

I'll turn it over to you whenever you're ready.

[Andrew Brown]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm Andrew Brown, senior assistant deputy minister for the skills and employment branch at Employment and Social Development Canada.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that I'm participating in today's committee meeting from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'd also like to echo the sentiments of my colleague from Natural Resources Canada, Ms. Scharf. A key component of a just transition is helping Canadians have the skills and training they need to seize the growing economic opportunities arising from Canada's ambitious goal of net-zero emissions by 2050. I would like to elaborate on what ESDC is doing to support this from a workforce development perspective.

While climate change will result in a number of employment challenges, the shift to a low-carbon economy will also provide exceptional opportunities to build an inclusive and skilled workforce to drive economic growth. As Ms. Scharf highlighted, Canada's clean energy sector is growing. In fact, this growth will continue to accelerate, doubling to approximately 640,000 workers by 2030.

In addition to clean energy, other priority sectors related to the low-carbon economy include construction, natural resources, transportation, environment and the emerging battery supply chain industry. Employers and workers across sectors and industries will require varying levels of support to develop the skills needed to seize current and emerging opportunities. Employment and Social Development Canada is committed to leveraging our existing skills and employment programming to train, upskill and reskill workers to help ensure that all Canadians can benefit from these opportunities, especially those from equity-deserving groups.

The mandate of the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion includes three specific commitments to support the skills component of a just transition: first, to support the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Labour in moving forward with just transition legislation; second, to launch a clean jobs training centre to help workers across sectors upgrade or gain new skills to be on the leading edge of the zero-carbon industry; third, to address gaps in training and upskilling to help ensure that all Canadian workers can take advantage of sustainable battery industry opportunities.

The department is making progress with regard to each of these commitments. For example, ESDC has supported and will keep supporting our colleagues at Natural Resources Canada throughout the stakeholder consultation process, to move us closer to tabling a just transition act in Parliament.

We'll also consult with these subject matter experts on the development of the clean jobs training centre to help ensure a people‑centred approach to this new initiative.

In addition, the government announced a major new investment of $960 million in budget 2021 for the new sectoral workforce solutions program. A key pillar of this program is to prioritize investments in building talent for the low‑carbon economy across multiple sectors.

The program will support the design and delivery of training and human resources solutions that meet the needs of businesses, especially small and medium‑sized businesses, as well as help recruit and retain a diverse and inclusive workforce.

We just closed a round of a call for proposals for the sectoral workforce solutions program in March, and we are currently in the process of assessing and prioritizing projects. Projects to address the skills needed for a just transition could begin as early as summer 2022. In addition, Employment and Social Development Canada has a large suite of skills and employment programming, and we are currently exploring how these programs can also be leveraged to support just transition and the implementation of Canada's new emissions reduction plan.

Given my time, I'll try to close up by saying that I believe that addressing emerging labour shortages and equipping the workforce with new skills will be a critical enabling element of our collective actions on just transition. I look forward to advancing the department's contribution on this important issue.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Excellent. Thanks to both departments for their opening statements.

For the first round, each of the four members will have six minutes. I always like to let the witnesses know, in case they have their stopwatches running, how long each session will go for. These are six-minute rounds. We're going to be starting with Mr. Maguire.

Mr. Maguire, it's over to you for your first six minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the witnesses' being here today to start this new study.

I have a number of questions. I'm going to be asking for some information, so I'll get right at it. I'm deeply concerned about the negative impact of the government's policies on the oil and gas sector. Before the government goes to make any further decisions, it's imperative that we get a sense of the number of jobs directly or indirectly related to the oil and gas sector. I'm wondering if you could table with the committee any information you have on how many current jobs are either directly or indirectly related to the oil and gas sector, broken down by province.

Mr. Chair, I could go through these, but is there any comment on that? I'm assuming they can provide that.

[Debbie Scharf]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.

At this point in time, for that level of detail and given where we are with the emissions reduction plan and the decisions still to come, that's not a question I can answer.

I would like to point out that the emissions reduction plan did set a sector-by-sector approach to look at emissions reductions between now and 2030. It provided guideposts for action. The government has indicated that it will consult, in particular, on an oil and gas cap. I think there's some more work ahead of us to see how that's going to be designed and rolled out.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I feel consternation that this information isn't available. We have to have a base to start from. I'm going to ask the witnesses to provide as much detail as they can on that breakdown by province.

Also, we've heard from indigenous witnesses about how the oil and gas sector is creating wealth and prosperity in their communities. I am wondering if the witnesses could table with the committee any information they have on how many current jobs are either directly or indirectly related to the oil and gas sector in indigenous communities, which is very important. These sectors account for many jobs created and depended upon in those areas.

If the witnesses could include that information, Mr. Chair, I'd appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Does anyone have any response or insight? If not, we'll see what information can be provided after.

[Debbie Scharf]

That would be wonderful. Thank you.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I can supply this to the clerk later, too, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Sure. Thanks.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

The government announced that all new vehicles produced in Canada after 2035 will be electric. For this transition to happen, we know that Canada will have to produce a tremendous amount of new electricity and build the necessary infrastructure. Can you table with the committee the following: the modelling on how much more electricity is needed or will be needed to meet this demand, the modelling on the sources of that extra electricity generation, the cost to the government and to consumers of generating this electricity, and the cost to the government and to consumers of building community and personal generating stations?

Having spent some time with the Standing Committee of Parliamentarians of the Arctic Region, I think it's quite pertinent that we look at what can be done for these situations in those communities, and not necessarily just those. There are other small communities throughout the country as well. I'd ask for the information on those four areas as well.

The fourth area is that Canada has an abundance of critical minerals. We still rely on other countries for imports of critical minerals for electric batteries and other clean energy technologies. Can you please table with the committee a full list of the amounts and source countries of our imports of critical minerals for the past five years? These include copper, cobalt, nickel, lithium, chromium, zinc and aluminum. I won't name them all, Mr. Chair, but there are 17 rare earth minerals as well that are quite important.