Evidence of meeting #17 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Cape  Chief Executive Officer, Assembly Corporation
Yurkovich  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canfor Corporation
Hughes  President, Hupaco Wood Products
Power  Managing Director, PowerWood Corporation
Luckert  Professor Emeritus, Forest Economics and Policy, University of Alberta
Bromley  Chair, Wood Council, United Steelworkers

Martin Luckert Professor Emeritus, Forest Economics and Policy, University of Alberta

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to this forum. I apologize for not attending in person, but I teach a forest policy class tomorrow morning that I cannot miss.

My background in forest policy is largely focused on economic considerations related to the role of governments and how forests are used and managed. As a student of forest policy who tries to embrace the complexities of potential government roles, I will not be so rash as to suggest in a five-minute brief specific changes to forest policies. Instead, my approach will be to first describe emerging challenges related to the resilience of the forest industry in Canada's forests, and then I will suggest general policy strategies the federal government may wish to consider to help face these challenges.

In Canada, we have the unusual situation of having over 90% public ownership of forests, yet we have private industry largely responsible for harvesting and management, regulated by provincial—

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Dr. Luckert, if you could just slow down a little bit, that would be appreciated by our interpreters and others.

Thanks so much.

4:45 p.m.

Professor Emeritus, Forest Economics and Policy, University of Alberta

Martin Luckert

I will. Thank you.

In Canada, we have the unusual situation of having over 90% public ownership of forests, yet having private industry largely responsible for harvesting and management, regulated by provincial forest tenure arrangements. This situation implies that the resilience of the forest industry and the resilience of Canada's public forests are intertwined. Moreover, with provinces in control of forest tenures, there has historically been little room for federal policies to influence outcomes.

However, circumstances have changed the situation markedly, which makes the work of this committee of paramount importance.

Central to discussions of forest industry and forest resilience are concerns about the role of climate change in influencing future forests and the role of forests in influencing future climate change. Concerns tend to be focused on the resilience of three sets of values that define sustainable forest management—that is, economic, ecological and cultural.

Climate change can significantly affect the profitability of the forest industry, because it influences wood supply by affecting ecological processes such as regeneration, insects and disease, and fire. Responding to climate change is also central to maintaining social licence to manage public forests through the effective management of forest resources such as biodiversity and recreation.

Though most discussions of resilient sustainable forest management centre on considerations of climate change, a more recent and potentially more pressing consideration is the resilience of the forest industry—and therefore forests—to changing trade patterns. The new geopolitical order—or disorder—has enormous implications for the forest industry and beyond. Though trade disputes with the United States over software lumber go back to the early 1980s, the level of trade restrictions now being faced is unprecedented and will require a more diversified strategy that will involve new trade flows and alliances.

With provincial governments largely in control of forest policy with forest tenure arrangements, federal forest policy has historically had little scope for substantial impact. However, these new sources of volatility clearly overreach the current scopes of provincial tenure policies. Therefore, we are at the beginning of a new era of federal forest policy, where key issues that face the forest industry are more related to federal jurisdictions than ever before.

With respect to climate change and carbon considerations, policies are needed to facilitate planning for new dynamics of forests associated with changing climates. Part of this approach could consider how to incent forest managers to include carbon flows in management decisions. A prerequisite for such incentives is to delineate which party, i.e., which level of of government or industry, has rights and/or responsibilities to manage carbon. Incentives could come from carbon policy directed specifically at the forest sector or from more general policies that affect numerous sectors, such as biofuel initiatives.

Yet another important component is to support research to better understand how alternative forest structures will function and produce under new dynamic conditions, and how life cycles of carbon are impacted. At a global scale, tensions about the role of forests in climate policy continue to indicate an important role for federal involvement.

With respect to trade disruptions, diversification away from trade with the United States and diversification towards new products such as biofuels will be an ongoing priority. Along these lines, careful attention will be needed to assess potential policy impacts across sectors, such as how biofuel policies may impact forestry operations.

These two emerging areas of challenges have a key characteristic in common that suggests an increasing role for federal forest policy—neither respect provincial boundaries. Trade considerations are obviously so, but as a case in point for climate change issues, consider the case of wildfire, which has largely been a provincial government responsibility. The fire in Jasper National Park highlighted the need for more coordination among federal, provincial and municipal governments. Moreover, with indigenous peoples disproportionately influenced by wildfires, consultation with these governments becomes even more important.

In summary, Canada's forest industry and forests are being increasingly challenged by emerging sources of volatility at unprecedented scales. These larger scales point towards an increasing importance in federal forest policy. However, for the federal government response to be effective, it will be vital that this emerging situation does not result in new attempts at power shifts in forest governance within and among provincial and federal policy-makers and indigenous peoples. Instead, a new era of co-operation and coordination over multiple scales of government will be necessary.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Dr. Luckert.

Finally, Mr. Bromley, you have the floor for five minutes.

Jeff Bromley Chair, Wood Council, United Steelworkers

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee. Like my counterparts, I apologize for not being there in person. However, meetings here in Vancouver require that I must appear virtually.

My name is Jeff Bromley. I am the chair of the United Steelworkers' wood council. The wood council consists of 14,000 members working in Canada's forest industry across six provinces and in many aspects of the forest industry. I myself have spent 31 years in this industry, 18 years of it in manufacturing and the last 13 years servicing directly those members across this country.

Up until recently, our membership surpassed 20,000, representing mostly rural but high-paying and pension-supporting jobs with lots of health and welfare benefits. The impact of the most recent round of U.S. duties and tariffs on our products going to the States have had a massive impact on that membership, on those communities and on those families.

I don't need to reiterate what you've already heard here today in terms of the amount of duties since January 1, 2017, totalling close to $10 billion that the industry has paid on the products going into the United States. On the impact of those duties and the number of jobs that have been lost, there is a direct correlation. While it's not the only reason for those jobs being lost, it has had an incredible impact.

The forest industry in Canada, in my opinion, seems to get a bit left out of the conversation when it comes to trade. It certainly garners enough attention, but when it comes to wide-ranging trade agreements, especially with the United States, softwood lumber has always, in my history, been left out. That's to the detriment of our industry. Over 220,000 folks make their living in this industry across the nation, and 11,000 of those people are indigenous. The impact is far-reaching.

I'll focus on British Columbia. In our northern local in the Prince George area, that area has seen 15 operations close over the last five or six years, with a massive amount of job loss. I think what our government needs to do is focus on making sure we find a trade deal that supports the industry. As much as programs have been announced in terms of short-term loans for companies that need to access them, training to upskill workers for other industries or within the forestry itself, and market development offshore, those will move the needle somewhat in terms of finding new markets within Canada's forest industry, but the impact of the U.S. demand, taking 75% of Canada's forest products, is too great for us to be able to pivot enough to move that needle to continue to provide these high-paying jobs.

There are opportunities in terms of value added. When we talk about softwood lumber, many of my members across that 14,000 do produce two-by-fours and two-by-sixes and building products. They also produce massive amounts of value added, whether it be laminated veneer lumber, plywood, finger-jointed products or mass timber products. The markets are expanding, but the opportunities for those jobs to grow are growing at a smaller pace in terms of the opportunity that's provided by those softwood products going into the United States.

Our industry is a net carbon sink. For those who believe the forest shouldn't be managed, I say that if you do not manage those forests the way the industry does, Mother Nature will manage it for us. There will be fire. There will be disease and bugs that will do the damage we wouldn't do if we were managing those forests properly, which I believe our forest industry does. Support of that forest industry across the nation is paramount.

As I mentioned, the development of markets is super important. In the procurement and development of government buildings, using Canada's wood is pretty much a no-brainer in terms of any wood products within any government buildings and the promotion of Canadian wood products.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Mr. Bromley, could you just wrap up, unless you have a few more things to say?

4:55 p.m.

Chair, Wood Council, United Steelworkers

Jeff Bromley

Those are my comments.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Very good. Thank you, Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, all.

We're going to our first round of questions. We're going to start with Mr. Tochor for six minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Mr. Bromley, you were talking about buy Canadian. I just want to revisit a decision by the Mark Carney government to underwrite BC Ferries in your home province. Would that be an example of a poor policy choice by the government?

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

I have a point of order. This has nothing to do with wood. It has nothing to do with this government.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Mr. Tochor, if you could relate it to forestry, I think that would be helpful.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

The witness is a steelworker, so it is related.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

This study is about forestry.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

How much time do I have left?

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

You have lots. Let's keep this to forestry.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

I have five minutes and 51 seconds, but that's okay.

Mr. Bromley, you were talking about buy Canadian and the importance of supporting Canadian goods. We highlighted the BC Ferries debacle, where your taxpayer dollars are underwriting that program. How do your members feel about that?

4:55 p.m.

Chair, Wood Council, United Steelworkers

Jeff Bromley

It would be hard to comment directly on that. I don't want to speak for all of my members—

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

How do you feel?

4:55 p.m.

Chair, Wood Council, United Steelworkers

Jeff Bromley

In general, I think it's pretty clear that I support using Canadian steel, Canadian products and Canadian wood in all government procurement. That would be my answer.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Thank you.

I'll have some questions for you shortly, but I'll switch gears and go to Mr. Power.

If you could, explain quickly the carbon capture idea with forestry. There are some people on the committee who don't understand how this works. Could you, in a minute or less, explain how carbon capture works with wood products?

5 p.m.

Managing Director, PowerWood Corporation

Jake Power

No, it's not my area of expertise. I'd rather not touch on that.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

The idea, in premise, is that if we can lock the carbon into the wood and can build something, then that carbon is captured. Is that the essence of what you're referring to?

5 p.m.

Managing Director, PowerWood Corporation

Jake Power

I wasn't referring to carbon capture in any of my testimony.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Okay.

On the carbon issue, by removing the carbon tax, how many employees were you able to hire? Was it one, and you had 20-some employees to start with?

5 p.m.

Managing Director, PowerWood Corporation

Jake Power

We have 60, and the elimination of the carbon tax saved us enough money to hire a skilled worker.