Official Languages Committee on Feb. 5th, 2008

[Kelly Collins, Director General, Research, Strategic Planning and Policy Development, Canada Public Service Agency]

As regards the public service, policies applicable to the employer are much more specific than those which apply to other institutions.

[Karen Ellis]

There is a difference, but we work with everyone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you for those clarifications. We will move on with Mr. Michael Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentations. I have a question for Ms. Ellis.

The Government of Canada is by far and away the biggest employer in Canada, and any large employer has a significant say in what graduates our universities are graduating. For example, Microsoft or Research in Motion have a significant say in the kinds of engineers the University of Waterloo is graduating. Companies like the big banks in Canada have a significant say in the curriculum and the graduates the MBA schools are graduating in Canada. If they weren't getting the graduates they needed, they would be demanding better from these universities.

In this context, I wonder what discussions, if any, the Government of Canada has had, or other agencies have had, with Canada's university communities about delivering a greater number of bilingual graduates for positions in the Government of Canada. In other words, what discussions or liaisons have you had or have you been aware of that the government has made to these institutions about graduating a greater number of qualified applicants?

[Karen Ellis]

You're raising a really interesting point.

I would probably start even earlier. I think one of the things we need to do as public servants, whenever we have a chance to talk to an audience, is to encourage early learning of the two official languages in Canada at more junior levels, even, in school. I know the commissioner himself spoke at our best practices forum and talked about how many public speaking engagements he does with high schools and other schools to send out that message, which I think is very important.

In terms of universities, we are the biggest employer in Canada and we hire the widest range, actually, of degrees in the country as an employer, so we have an enormous reach into the universities and colleges. I don't know of anything really formal, but I certainly know I've been on a panel myself where there have been leaders of the masters of public administration programs, and we've said it would be really helpful if there were some offerings in French training as part of the programs. In terms of anything formal, I can't comment on particular discussions that I'm aware of, beyond saying that it would make sense to be encouraging students, particularly in programs that tend to be feeders into the public service, such as public administration or the MBA.

For me, I think it's also important for the students themselves that we build some awareness out there with ambassadors. We have deputy minister champions for pretty well every main university in Canada who go out and have discussions. If you can start to talk to the student body as well, what I think is really neat is they can start to demand. They see that French is also very useful, and maybe from a consumer perspective of a student, they might be able to take French.

The other thing I would say is that it's also important that people take some ownership. If you're interested in a career in the public service and you're interested in advancement, it's important for you to realize that French or English, whichever official language, is going to be important for your development and growth in the public service and to maybe invest yourself. I know I did as a student, even before I joined the public service. I always felt that having a second language was a smart thing to do. I think what we're seeing in Canada is an appreciation growing in our society that having a second or third language in this globalized world is just simply a smart way to invest in education.

So I see it more holistically. I think that as a country seeing the business smarts of having more languages and starting with our two official languages for those who would be interested in the public service is really the way to go. Talking with universities and encouraging that with the student body as well as the teaching staff I think is important.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I would just make a comment, Mr. Chair.

I think we underestimate the clout we have as an employer in this country. We employ far more people than any of the large corporations in this country, and I think we sometimes forget the pull we have with the university establishment in setting in place the kinds of graduates we want. So I would strongly encourage not just you but the people in the senior echelons of the public service who are involved with recruitment to more forcefully say to the university community, “You are not giving us the graduates we need. Yes, we need all these people in their subject specialties, but we also require people to be bilingual.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Chong, for those comments.

Now we will move on to Mr. Raymond Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I will give my colleague the time remaining.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

We are well aware of the idea of strengthening the public service's bilingual capacity, and we would like to see tangible results. However, we still find ourselves in situations where a certain number of senior officials, such as deputy ministers, take more than the two years allotted to reach an acceptable level of bilingualism for a position they already hold. I could even go further by talking about the duties that must be carried out by Canadian ambassadors, which to my knowledge, are often being carried out by unilingual anglophones. And yet, these people are supposed to represent Quebec and Canada equally. They are unable to speak the language of the Quebec nation. These things are of a great concern to me. I feel that there is a deficiency.

We received a document from Ms. Marie-France Kenny, from Saskatchewan, who is running for the presidency of the FCFA, la Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne. This ties into what I am talking about. Allow me to quote the following:

The new supervisor is indeed given four hours per week of language training. A supervisor would need at least five years and tens of thousands of dollars before reaching the necessary level, and during all this time, he or she is addressed in English.

She is talking about francophones. She continues by saying:

This is a sort of assimilation. He or she can only ask himself, why learn French when my staff is going to speak to me in English?

Doesn't this situation prove that a public servant is not free to express him or herself, and work in the language of his or her choice within the public service? We allow for a certain degree of leeway, by exempting senior state officials, deputy ministers, and others. If I want to be a doctor, I have to graduate from medicine. If I want to be a senior official, and I live in Canada, I should be bilingual. Otherwise, I will not get the job.

What is your response to this situation? Don't you think that there is still a flagrant lack of willpower within the public service that results in francophones being forced to speak English when they work in an environment that should allow them to speak French?

[Karen Ellis]

Sir, I agree with the fact that managers must be able to work with a bilingual staff. The expectation is clear and categorical: if a person does not meet the required qualifications to supervise employees in both official languages, and must receive training to this end, a concrete plan must be drawn so that the person replacing the manager be capable of working with bilingual employees. There will always be expectations as regards the language needs of employees. If staff is bilingual, this is the measure to be taken in any given department.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Is this really being done, or is it just what should be done?

[Karen Ellis]

As far as I am concerned, I have been a public servant for the last 24 years. I was assistant deputy minister at National Defence for a few years and I have always worked with my managers to make sure that there was compliance with the plans which truly enabled us to manage a bilingual staff. That is what I want to say. As managers, as leaders within the public service, people must take this seriously. We must do things respectfully, not just to meet obligations, but to also encourage the use of both official languages in the workplace. Everyone must know that this is truly important.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Ms. Ellis, if after two years a senior official has not obtained the level required, don't you believe that it would be normal for the person to be demoted because he or she has not met the qualifications and therefore should be replaced by someone else? By doing so, we would avoid finding ourselves in a situation where a person is being paid a certain salary, with the help of someone working at his or her side to convey information in both official languages, at a much lower salary.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Unfortunately, your speaking time is up. You can answer later on. We will move on with Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In the 2006-2007 Performance Report of the Canada School of Public Service, the following was written:

The waiting list was reduced by more than 1,200 people in 2005-2006, to 85 people in 2006-2007. This decrease can be explained by two factors: a moratorium on the waiting list until the transition period towards the new model was adopted, and the application of a training validation exercise which eliminated candidates from the list after a review of their training needs.

There were 1,115 fewer people on the waiting list. Why are they no longer there?

[Donna Achimov]

We managed our waiting list in accordance with an action plan for each individual in order to increase the hours of training, increase the number of instructors, and we tightly managed the central process to find the best way to manage people and ensure quality of training. We hired staff who deployed intense efforts to administer each individual case, to manage needs and

to forecast better in terms of the demand.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Can you explain to us what the moratorium was about? Were names removed from the list afterwards?

[Donna Achimov]

With respect to the moratorium, may I defer to my colleague who can answer your question?

[Sylvain Dufour]

In fact, what happened is that we found ourselves with a rather high number of people who were on language training waiting lists. We did not want to continue adding names as we were making attempts to shorten the waiting list. Therefore, we placed a moratorium on the number of applications the school was receiving and began to work with the department in hopes of finding other service providers, because we were overwhelmed. It would not have been wise to continue adding names, as we were trying to shorten the list.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

What were the results of that? Was somebody doing a follow-up, or did you lose control?

[Sylvain Dufour]

Do you mean—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm talking about those who were sent to the departments. You say that you were responsible for sending them elsewhere. Was any follow-up done? Is there any data on that?

[Sylvain Dufour]

It is the responsibility of departments to follow up on people who undergo language training. We simply train people. They come to our school, we provide language training, the departments provide a report each year—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Yes, but when the school was providing training we knew how many people were receiving it.

[Sylvain Dufour]

We knew how many people were coming to school, but the Canada School of Public Service is not the only institution that can provide language training. For our part, we can say how many people registered in language training, but there were other students who studied elsewhere.