Official Languages Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So in future press conferences, you could also talk about Borden and the follow-up to that.

[Yves Côté]

I intend to follow this issue very seriously. I am not at ruling out the possibility of discussing it publicly.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I would invite you to talk about it publicly as often as possible, Mr. Côté, because that is the only way that we will be able to change a culture of this type.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger. You have a built-in timekeeper.

Mr. Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I do not know whether you told us how many francophones there are in Borden.

[Yves Côté]

The figures we have been given have not been checked, but there are roughly 1,500 francophone recruits and students at Borden each year.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You have not received many complaints. These francophones do not file many complaints.

[Yves Côté]

We have received very few complaints. When I went to Borden and heard about the issue, I was surprised, because, quite honestly, I was not expecting it at all. Before I visit any base or wing, I always ask the people in reception services who get complaints to inform me of them. During my work in preparation of my visit, no one told me that I might hear about some language complaints.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I have a comment on that. Since they are a minority, francophones do not complain often, because they are somewhat embarrassed not to speak English. It is seen as somewhat shameful not to speak the language of the majority. We see this even in Quebec. We are a minority within Canada.

I studied in Rome, Italy, where the Canadian college is located. Francophones were in the majority there. There were only a few anglophones. When there was a group of six francophone priests and an anglophone arrived, the language of the conversation switched to English. We asked why that was, and the answer was that the francophones were practising their English, because as a minority, they thought they absolutely had to speak English in this country, that it was failing on their part not to speak English. That is why the anglophone minority is very well treated in Quebec. Earlier, my colleague said that so much English was spoken in Saint-Jean that there were complaints on this. The opposite is not true.

Being a francophone is seen as a defect, and anglophones know that quite well. That is why we have to act proactively. In the case we are discussing, if we wait for complaints in order to change things, we will be waiting a long time.

We have to be aware of this situation in order to take some action. If we do nothing, these people will just fade into the woodwork and not speak out.

[Yves Côté]

I would like to make a few comments on that, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, as I mentioned, students or recruits in the Canadian armed forces are new and are at the bottom of the ladder. Filing a complaint with a person in authority or with an office such as ours is not necessarily an easy thing to do. Second, some people are not aware that we exist, and that may be why they did not come to see us.

We did a few surveys in June 2007. Of the 185 francophones who completed our questionnaires, 85% said they did not know where to go to get assistance, and 81% said that they did not think the assistance they needed would be available. This certainly confirms the impression that people do not know what to do or where to turn, and that even if they did, they were not sure they would manage to get results.

As my investigators and I make our visits to the bases and the wings, we will definitely be paying more attention to the language issue. Once again, I am not ruling out the possibility that some unilingual anglophones may find themselves in a similar situation. Obviously, our office must be impartial and objective: we must keep our eyes and ears open as regards this issue within the Canadian armed forces.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do you get along well with Mr. Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages?

[Yves Côté]

I will not speak for him, but I think we got along very well. He was extremely receptive. I met with him once, and we have spoken two or three times since then. I can say that he is very sensitive to what we are doing here. He had absolutely no objection to my incursion into his territory, because he understood very well that there is an issue of fair and equitable treatment involved. So far, there has been excellent cooperation between his office and mine, and between Mr. Fraser and myself.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Côté.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Gravel.

We will now go to the government side. I will give the floor to the parliamentary secretary, Pierre Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you for your presentation.

You have spoken about certain problems, challenges and the culture that exists.

It's a problem of leadership, of attitude, but I think there's a very practical side to finding solutions to these problems.

I don't believe there's a quick-fix solution, it's not something that money will solve, that you just throw money at. We need trained and capable instructors.

They must be bilingual and able to offer education and training in French, in this particular case.

I was a member of the Canadian armed forces for 20 years. As Mr. Chong said, we must remember that there has been a huge reduction in the number of members of the forces in the last 20 years, and I am not thinking just of equipment here. We know about the equipment situation, but there is also the staff issue. When I joined the forces, there were 85,000 members, and when I retired in 2000, there were 63,000. That is a reduction of 20,000, or 25 to 30%.

The Canadian armed forces have genuine operational commitments to National Defence Headquarters, and with the United Nations, as regards training. The forces have a great many obligations.

The Canadian Forces are spread very thin. They have many commitments, not enough trained personnel.

I think the first challenge to finding a solution lies with its resources. When I say “resources”, I mean trained, qualified personnel who are capable of instructing but who are also bilingual.

The second challenge is bilingual formation.

The Canadian armed forces had a policy on bilingualism, which proved to be a failure. Our commissioner described it as a failure. They are in the process of establishing a new policy, but it just started, in April, I think. We are now living with the consequences of the former policy. We cannot deal with the bilingualism problem in one easy step. The past failure had consequences. We are now living with the consequences of that policy. I would like to be clear—the situation in Borden must be improved.

We owe this to our francophone soldiers, and particularly to their training as technicians, etc.

I think you're a little bit like me.

You would like to have some practical solutions, some genuine solutions.

But I think it's necessary to look at the practicalities of what's involved.

For example, the Canadian Forces would have to find bilingual instructors, but they have all of these commitments. Not everybody can instruct, they have to be qualified in their trade, they have to take instructional courses to be able to instruct, etc.

Borden is a huge base. A lot of training goes on in Borden. So when you think about the logistics of finding these trained instructors who are bilingual, and if you go to a unit and you say, we're taking 15 of your people, what if that unit's training for Afghanistan? What if that unit has operational commitments? If they're doing something else, who will replace them? When will they move? When will the people replacing them move?

There's a logistical challenge here, so I think we have to take this into consideration.

In one of your letters, you wrote, and I quote:

I believe that these initiatives are a positive step forward, and will go a long way to addressing the significant problems that were brought to my attention by Canadian Forces members when I traveled to CFB Borden late last year.

This leads me to believe that you are satisfied with the proposed solutions, but that things are not happening fast enough.

There are practicalities that must be overcome to be able to implement the solutions.

I wondered if you could comment on that. You seem to be happy with what's been proposed, you seem to be unhappy with how quickly it's being implemented. Yet given the context I just explained, I can understand why, realistically, it's taking time. It's a huge base, there are lots of courses being run, and finding those people takes time.

Could you comment on taking that into consideration?

[Yves Côté]

Most certainly, Mr. Chair.

The member talked about practical considerations, and we can perhaps add to the existing problems of the Canadian Forces the fact that it is becoming very difficult to send francophones to Borden for training. Many people stationed in Bagotville, Saint-Jean or Montreal say they do not want to go to Borden or Barrie in Ontario because their families are afraid of ending up isolated in an anglophone environment, and that it would be very difficult. But that's another problem. Regarding practical considerations, I do agree with you that there are many.

Mr. Chairman, the member said I was an optimist, but I have to shatter his delusions. I did indeed write that positive steps had been taken, but when we returned on a follow-up visit last June, after we were given a summary of the plan of action, we realized that in practical terms nothing seemed to have changed. So my feeling of optimism took a beating.

Furthermore, in a piece which appeared in the Barrie Examiner, which we will table at the end of the meeting, this high-ranking officer said that, as far as he was concerned, the problem was not as serious as I said it was, and that it was an exaggeration to say that the chain of command had not reacted with all due diligence. So when I see people react that way, I lose my sense of optimism.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Côté. I apologize for having to interrupt you, but you did not have much time to respond.

We will now continue with Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, I have just heard the government's reaction.

I find it regrettable to hear Mr. Lemieux say that National Defence has commitments with NATO and the UN, as if these were real commitments, whereas bilingualism was a different matter all together. In the same way, Mr. Chong has just said that in the past, no monies were spent on this issue. But that's not what we're talking about. The fact is that it is not more expensive to hire a mechanics instructor who is bilingual.

As far as I am concerned, I am not willing to put up with excuses. We're not even talking about money. When you hire people to provide services, you have to hire those who speak both languages. What we are dealing with is a lack of respect and an infringement of Canadian law. It does not cost more to hire bilingual receptionists for Borden college than it does to hire unilingual English-speaking receptionists. Are we going to leave it at that? Not as far as I'm concerned. I do not want the government to backtrack. The fact of the matter is that there is a culture at the Department of National Defence and because of it the department simply does not accept that there are two founding nations and two official languages. Services must be provided in both of these languages.

Mr. Côté, you seem to agree with these people that it costs money, that it's hard at National Defence, and that we will have to take our time. I don't agree with the fact that we have to take our time.

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, all I did was recognize that there were some practical realities. I also repeated several times that the situation at CFB Borden was deplorable, regrettable and unacceptable. I have not changed my mind on the assessment we made.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Would you agree that this has nothing to do with money, but rather that it is a matter of attitude? It does not cost any more to hire a bilingual instructor.

[Yves Côté]

I repeat that, in my opinion, this is also an issue of leadership, and that this is significant. If clear directives are given by people in positions of authority, and if there is a rigorous and strict follow-up, much progress can be made.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I do not like the word “progress”. I want to solve the problem. It seems that it is always francophones who make progress. We have been making progress for 20 years, though we had to fight hard for that.

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be simplistic, but as the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day. We are talking about progress, about positive steps forward, about determination and real energy to...

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Please do not forget that I salute your efforts. I am not attacking you personally, but rather the Department of National Defence.

Let's talk about Gagetown now. Do you intend to go to the place where our soldiers train? Will you visit every base with regard to this matter?

[Yves Côté]

There is no doubt that Gagetown holds a particular interest for us, because that is where our recruits train, and not at CBF Borden. I certainly do not exclude the possibility of visiting Gagetown to see how recruits are dealing with language issues.