Official Languages Committee on May 26th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to take a minute and then let Mr. D'Amours continue. I have to leave to attend the tabling of the report of the Commissioner of Official Languages, which is unfortunately taking place at the same time as this appearance. We already know it will concern the situation at Borden and in the armed forces in general. It would have been interesting for the meeting to be held before it, but, whatever the case may be, I must leave shortly.

The situation seems to be endemic. It also appears to be evolving in the wrong direction. Is it a problem of resources, will or leadership? If we invested a lot of money, would that change anything? As is often the case, it might change nothing because, in the event of a fundamental problem of leadership or lack of will, matters won't be resolved regardless of the resources allocated. What should be done to resolve them?

[Pierre Daigle]

I think that the very essence of the answer should come from the Canadian Forces. However, I agree that, if members of the Canadian Forces are dealing with an unfair and inequitable situation in their everyday work context, it's also a matter of leadership. We have to make the rest of the organization aware and ensure that importance is attached to this situation.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It may even be the cornerstone. Moreover, the Commissioner's last report, last year, concerned that lack of leadership. If there isn't any leadership at the senior levels, it is hard to ensure that the rest of the people will abide by the rules and use the necessary determination. In my opinion, people at the top of the hierarchy must show unshakable leadership for the situation to be corrected. That's not only part of the solution; it may perhaps be the most important factor.

I'll now hand over to my brilliant colleague Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Daigle, I understand your role. Since you are independent, no one above you decides how things will work. However, you must ensure that the rules are obeyed.

Decisions are made at National Defence. They may concern matters both in and outside the country and decisions concerning humanitarian aid, for example. However, regardless of the decision made, it has been suggested to us that its involvements warrant that bilingual objectives should not be achieved. I don't think that's a valid reason.

Do you consider the reasons given acceptable, unacceptable or deplorable?

[Pierre Daigle]

I find it unacceptable that no action has been taken to remedy this situation, which puts unilingual members of the Canadian Forces at a disadvantage, whether they are francophone or anglophone. We've found similar situations on other military bases. That's why I've made this my priority. I think it's unacceptable that members of the Canadian Forces, who are serving their country, are not receiving fair instruction, training and services in their language, so that they can advance and do their work within the Canadian Forces.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Ultimately, regardless of the decisions that those responsible make, whether it's the decision to get involved in an Afghanistan mission or a peacekeeping mission or an aid mission in a province, you find that unacceptable. Regardless of the decision made, the two official languages must be respected.

[Pierre Daigle]

Since my role is to ensure that situations of injustice, inequity and so on are corrected, I'm going to consider those situations that are unacceptable. I'm not going—

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

—to try to amplify the problem to find reasons justifying inaction.

[Pierre Daigle]

It's not up to me to find reasons. I underscore the problems and the facts associated with them, and I make recommendations to remedy the situation.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That's perfect. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. D'Amours.

We'll now continue with Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for appearing before us today, Mr. Daigle and Mr. Egglefield.

I'm always interested in the passionate questions of our colleague Mr. Godin, and in the answers that are given to his questions. I'm just as interested when I think they don't get an answer.

So I would like to know something. Does the poster that Mr. Godin referred to exist or not?

[Pierre Daigle]

I don't know, Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

So let's assume that it doesn't, or even that it does. During the training that is offered to recruits who arrive at CFB Borden, are they told about their language rights and available remedies if those rights are not satisfactorily respected?

[Pierre Daigle]

In the first recommendations that we made and that were followed, that aspect was addressed. The recruits, candidates and students who arrive at Borden are now made aware of their language rights and of the remedies they can take. So I suppose that, at that point, they know that there is a website that they can consult on the matter. I know that that aspect has been addressed.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

What kind of teaching material is there?

[Pierre Daigle]

Once again, from reading the files, I noted that there were problems with the translation of the teaching material used for instruction purposes. However, I couldn't say any more at this stage about the kind of material that is used, unless my director has any information on that subject.

[Denis Egglefield]

We didn't check the details regarding teaching material. We concluded that it was highly likely that the lack of available teaching material and francophone or bilingual instructors was one of the reasons why the courses were not offered in French.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Go ahead, Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Paré has done some research on teaching material in French. These are apparently the titles of the volumes you have, and that would represent nearly an entire table full of volumes. So these are only the titles. I requested them in 2007. Imagine, I've just received them! That's not too bad; he did a good job.

Mr. Paré mentioned one problem: we don't know whether all these volumes, even if they are in French, are used every day.

I propose that we table the list of volumes in French for committee members and that we also submit it to Mr. Daigle and Mr. Egglefield so that they can check it. They could respond to us in writing on the matter, to tell us whether they are actually used.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I'm going to consider that as a request for information.

Mr. Nadeau, we're going to come round to you.

If you'll allow me to interrupt your remarks, perhaps we could make a request for information concerning the documents, the teaching material in French and English that is used at the college. Mr. Paré could make a request for information. Then we'll go back to Mr. Nadeau's comment.

[Jean-Rodrigue Paré, Committee Researcher]

Based on the analysis I've done of the documents that were tabled with the committee in the spring of 2008, the basic courses are usually quite well provided with teaching material. Sometimes the quality of the translations may be deficient, but the documents are available.

In the case of specialized courses or for more advanced trades, there are significant deficiencies. I noted a few sectors. I can't identify all the areas where there were deficiencies, but there appeared to be deficiencies in the following fields: welding and machining, tank maintenance and container maintenance and handling. I noted significant deficiencies in those fields in particular, but I didn't examine all areas where there might be deficiencies.

The basic courses are well provided for, but problems arise as soon as you move into specializations in the second and third years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

The summary document was distributed to all committee members.

We're going to go back to Mr. Galipeau.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

May I ask a question?