Official Languages Committee on Feb. 24th, 2009

[Tommy Théberge]

That's right, they'll pick up a document and will explore it in the same way, and come across the same indicators. For example, the indicator .12 means that what follows is in bold. This really has to do with the rules for document layout and symbol use. But that's a long-term project that we are just getting into.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Will teachers also all be on the same page by September 2009?

[Tommy Théberge]

Each network has taken charge of training, awareness building, and implementation. And each network is going to ensure that these individuals are properly trained.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Perhaps this is a little utopian, but can an individual who uses braille get his or her hands on a document within a reasonable timeframe?

[Tommy Théberge]

There are two parts to my answer to this question. First, as regards education, there are adaptation services available which allow universities and CEGEPs, as well as elementary and high schools, to have access to people who will produce the documents. Of course, creating a document and transcribing it into braille does take some time. To give you some idea, a braille technician can transcribe about 100 pages into braille in a good work day. Of course, if we have 3,500 pages to do, this does take time, plus the time for checking and quality control.

The second part of my answer to your question has to do with access to the books of one's choice. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done in the area of leisure activities, for example, because at the moment, the Service québécois du livre adapté, which is supported by the Quebec department of culture offers a good selection of books transcribed into braille—perhaps 400 each year. That means they must make choices. When choices are made, some things are left out. So, obviously, individuals who read books in braille have access to only a fraction of what is available.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

Is your business card written in Grade I or Grade II braille?

[Tommy Théberge]

It is Grade I braille, and there are no capitals or indicators. It simply says INLB.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I see. It would take a very clever person here to be able to decode that card this morning.

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Théberge.

I would like to start by thanking Monique for suggesting this subject. This meeting gives us an opportunity to learn a little more and to realize that we did not know that there was a problem with this. Only people in this situation are aware of the issue. At least, this gives us an opportunity to become aware of the problem. I am hardly an expert in this field. That is why you are here: to inform us and so that we can see whether we can help you.

I have a few questions for you. You will be changing the way you do things in September. Is that correct?

[Tommy Théberge]

Yes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Then there will be the new training. What will happen to all the books written in the past with all the new people coming along, who will be learning the new version of braille? Will people learn both versions, or will one of the two eventually be eliminated?

[Tommy Théberge]

Of course we are not going to simply throw everything we have into the garbage can; we are keeping our collections. Access to Grade I one braille remains quite easy, because the changes that have been made are all in the layout rules. For future production, everyone agrees that it will be very easy for braille users to have access to these documents. Of course, the documents that were transcribed with other codes—1955 braille and 1996 braille—will contain some symbols that may be unknown to readers. However we and other groups will provide concordance tables that readers who have not necessarily had the training can use to match up the symbols. In any case, one of the services we offer at the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille is the teaching of braille. So if users have too many problems, we could send them to an expert who would help them learn how to read the documents correctly.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Have you thought about anglophones who are learning French, and who are accustomed to writing in braille in their institution? Are there any French-language institutions where it would be as easy for them?

[Tommy Théberge]

Let us take the example of the Ontario and Manitoba Departments of Education. They deal with Quebec producers for the adaptation of documents. Clearly, we will be applying these new presentation rules for braille in French.

I do not know what happened or did not happen regarding the implementation, training and raising of awareness in areas outside Quebec. This is an issue that should be taken into account and may not have been.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm aware of one institution in Quebec. Do people from other parts of Canada have to come to Quebec? I believe there is only one institution in New Brunswick, but clearly it would not be of the same calibre as the one in Quebec. What happens to people from other regions of the country?

[Tommy Théberge]

When they want to transcribe a document, they turn to Quebec producers. The CNIB in Toronto also does this. The production is shared between Toronto and Quebec, because the CNIB can also meet the needs of francophones for texts in braille.

In Quebec the IRDPQ is the umbrella group in charge. And elsewhere in Canada, the CNIB is helpful in this regard.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It helps out with the documents or texts themselves, but what about the training aspect?

[Tommy Théberge]

They can also turn to these people. The school boards—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is training available in Toronto, for example?

[Tommy Théberge]

They can provide it, but I would not want to answer for them.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Very well.

Do you have the support of francophones in the rest of Canada?

[Tommy Théberge]

In the francophone community, Quebec assumes a leadership role for the most part. I should say that no one from outside Quebec expressed an interest in taking this on. It would have been interesting if someone had come forward. One weakness may be the fact that we do not have at least one individual from outside Quebec who is involved in this project. You will also appreciate that there is the whole financial issue. Our resources are minimal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We will now go to Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing before the committee.

As far as this matter is concerned, I'd like to point out that Mr. Jacques Côté, the President and CEO of Jymico, a company that produces braille documents, works in my riding, not far from my office. My riding is also home to deaf people who are blind as well, who need instruction, and so on. There are two or three institutes in my riding. In addition, for about 50 years now, in my riding, the government has centralized a number of activities to help the visually impaired.

I raised a number of issues when we met with the representatives of these institutes. There is definitely support at the provincial level, as you explained. Not far from here, there is also the CNIB which does different work. We were struck by something rather unique. In our riding, some people are working with braille, and others are working with an audio system known as Audiothèque. The place I visited uses the Audiothèque system. Many people lose their vision because of old age or because of accidents. The person in charge of the facility I visited is Mr. Schram, whom I'm sure you know. About 100 volunteers come in to record newspapers, novels, and so on. I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but I understood there was a sort of rivalry between braille and the Audiothèque system, which enables persons who have become visually impaired, for whatever reason, to pick up the telephone, dial a number and hear about everything going on that day, because someone on the other end of the line is reading for the visually impaired person.

Because I'm a federal Member of Parliament, I asked another question, specifically whether the federal government offered the same service. Let's say that you are an older person, that you are very wealthy and that you become blind or visually impaired, but you have to manage the money you do have and file your income tax returns. Are income tax returns available in braille from the federal government or the provincial government? I know that they are not available from the provincial government. Are they available from the federal government? I would ask you to answer afterwards.

There is something I would like to know about the services offered at present. We know a convention is being planned. Mr. Côté spoke about it. However, at the federal level, can the people you represent have separate services in braille or audio?