Official Languages Committee on May 21st, 2013

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Okay. It is clearer. Thank you.

[Raymond Sokalski]

Yes, there is a whole range of CBC/Radio-Canada programs. Some are in English, but not in French. There were programs like Canada’s Next Great Prime Minister. In French, La Plus Grande Personnalité canadienne has a website but no video. There are small 10-minute clips.

That is what I need as a teacher.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I think immersion schools are doing well. Your suggestions might help improve things. However, I am not sure that the overall learning of French is going well. That is what I am worried about.

According to the data before me, there are 181,000 students in the Manitoban public system. The number is going up. There are about 5,000 students in the francophone division. That number is also going up. There are about 21,000 students in immersion schools. That number is going up. That’s good.

But here is the bad news. The learning of French in regular English-speaking schools—I think we are talking about 61,000 students—has dropped significantly. In 1990, there were 90,000 students. This means that the number has dropped by one-third. The situation is similar in the private sector. So approximately 94,000 English-speaking students have virtually no opportunity to learn French in Manitoba.

How do you explain that? Immersion schools are in a sense the façade that hides a drop in numbers. This drop is of great concern to me.

[Raymond Sokalski]

Are we talking about students enrolled in basic French courses?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Yes, in regular schools, not immersion schools. I am not saying that immersion schools are irregular.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

I don’t claim to be an expert in the area, but in elementary schools, the person teaching all the classes now has to teach French as well, the so-called basic French. Imagine teachers who are not comfortable speaking French or do not speak it and still have to teach it in grades 3, 4 and 5. It is difficult. As I mentioned, teachers must be passionate about what they teach.

The policy has changed. It is now no longer required that French be taught by someone who speaks it very well. Students may start having negative experiences and developing a negative attitude towards the language.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

That is another issue. The French courses that 61,000 students are taking in those schools are perhaps of lesser quality than before. The fact remains that 94,000 students do not even have the option of taking French courses.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Yes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

That is what the statistics I have say. In addition, that number is going up.

I don’t know whether, from your positions in immersion schools, you are able to see this drop in other types of schools and if you are able to explain the trend.

[Raymond Sokalski]

No. We came here to talk about immersion. We are seeing an increase in immersion enrolment. You mentioned there was an increase. I am happy to see that, there seems to be less stress around registration in Manitoba, compared to other provinces. Parents who wish to enrol their children in an immersion program can in fact have access to one.

My students practically come from all over Winnipeg. They come from both poor and well-off neighbourhoods. There is a good mix and it does not seem that anyone has to spend the night in a parking lot to be first in line to enrol their child. The supply and demand seem to be relatively balanced, and we are happy about that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay.

Thank you.

Mr. Gourde, go ahead.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was interesting to listen to your remarks, especially when you talked about your opportunities to learn French as anglophones. Please stop me if you think I am going too far, but we would like all Canadians to have those types of opportunities so that anglophones can speak French and francophones can speak English. Our study deals with immersion schools. As we know, this is a provincial matter, but the federal government can provide some support.

Mr. Sokalski, I really liked what you said about the CBC/Radio-Canada programming.

Could an extra effort be made to provide you with more French-language materials, such as anglophone programs, or francophone programs that can be translated into English, or programs in both languages at the same time? We have already talked about that in committee.

Would those tools be beneficial to you by helping your students do their work?

[Raymond Sokalski]

In a word, yes.

However, I have mixed feelings about the issue, because there could be problems. I am definitely interested in having access to programs for francophones in Quebec. I currently have access to programs such as Pérusse Cité, where a deputy minister gives advice to a fictitious environment minister in Quebec. So I already have access to that type of programming.

The issue is not having access to an English translation of those French-language programs, because the French is quite clear. The problem is that those programs are so focused on Quebec that their usefulness for my students in Manitoba is open to question. By watching those shows, they can get an idea of Quebec reality and hear Quebec expressions. That is all very useful, but I would like to see someone come up with the same type of programming that focuses on a federal minister instead so that my students can better understand the federal system in Canada.

I will list other programs for those who are not familiar with Pérusse Cité. Some programs poke fun at politicians, such as Et Dieu créa… Laflaque or its English equivalent The Rick Mercer Report. Right? Those programs try to educate Canadians while also criticizing some aspects of the government system. It is not a lesson per se, but rather an appealing way of delivering a lesson.

Rick Mercer talks about Canada as a whole, but perhaps he does not talk enough about French Canada. It is true. What I am looking for is something in French that talks about all of Canada.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

You will understand that financial resources become limited sooner or later.

Just now, you talked about Katimavik, which costs almost $30,000 per person and only about 500 people can participate a year. Is it better to fund programs like that or is it better to give 5 million young Canadians a chance to have access to tools that help them with their personal development?

We must make a choice. Do we give an opportunity to many Canadians to learn the two languages or to only 1,000 people a year? It is important to make that choice.

In your view, what should we do? Should we favour the masses or the elite?

[Raymond Sokalski]

That must be a difficult choice. If you put it that way, I don't envy you. It must be very difficult, especially when you are talking about $30,000 per participant. That is unheard of. It is difficult to keep the authentic aspect, but it is really important to do so. However, the fact that the Katimavik program costs $30,000 per person must call the whole program into question.

When I participated in the Canada World Youth program, I stayed with host families. Are we trying to preserve or to create community-based programs by investing the necessary funding to do so? I don't know. If memory serves, the participants—

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Let's go back to tools. As teachers, are there other tools that could provide you with the support you need?

You need a foundation, but the students are able to make some progress on their own. My children learned English in school, but today they are able to have conversations and go further by watching TV and using computers and electronic tools.

Would it help you a lot if the federal government invested in other programs and tools that would benefit the majority of students?

[Chris Young]

I think we mentioned a number of them in our speech.

[Raymond Sokalski]

We talked about authentic experiences, exchanges, visits to museums and historic sites with francophone guides who are very comfortable speaking the language. When the students visit a fort or look at a statue, the guides, whose first language is French, interact with a group of young people and give them an opportunity to have a certain experience. That is what we are looking for as teachers, once we are outside the classroom.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Cultural organizations rely on grants. When we turn to what the federal government can do, I think about our context. In Winnipeg, we have the Cercle Molière theatre, the Maison Gabrielle-Roy museum, the Lower Fort Garry National Historic Site, the Forks National Historic Site. However, it is difficult for us to have access to tours in French, because only one or two people can give those tours. It is very important for people to be able to present, share and create those experiences in both languages.

[Chris Young]

Even if the French-language educational resources are better for anglophones and even if, when they receive their high school diplomas, their spoken French is better, if they do not have an opportunity to visit the country and to become familiar with various perspectives at the post-secondary level, it will be very difficult for them to keep up their French. We know that.

Once they start university, many of our graduates no longer practise the French they have learned, which, in many cases, means that they will be losing it. It is difficult to be a politician. I know that you need to make decisions and that money is limited, but I think those programs are really important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay.

Thank you.

Mr. Trottier, go ahead.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am very happy that you are here today. Manitoba feels a bit like home to me. My father grew up there; he attended a French school in Saint-Norbert and studied at the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface. He told me stories about his philosophy and Greek exams when the school was still a classical college. I fully understand the challenge that comes with studying in French in a place like Manitoba, but I feel that you are up to the challenge.

I would first like to briefly clarify my comments, given that we will not talk a lot about this topic. In terms of Katimavik, it was $28,000 a year per participant and the drop-out rate was 30%. I really share your point of view on the importance of authentic experiences. Immersion is important, but you need more than that. That has been my experience as well. I have met with young students who were in immersion for years, but who did not acquire the confidence to use their French-language skills in the community and in the world in general. In that sense, authentic experiences are important.

You also talked about history. And that is always problematic, especially when we talk about the teaching of history by the federal government. The provinces are sometimes sensitive to the issue. I would like us to talk about authentic experiences in today's context. I think it is a good topic and we could talk about it in broader terms in committee.

Could you give us some examples of authentic experiences or tell us about your ideas in a more current context rather than historical? I actually think that students are more interested in the present than in the past. History is important, but it does not always awaken the same interest.

[Chris Young]

I discuss current events with my students almost daily. What I teach does not only pertain to the present. I talk about current events, but I always relate them to history, so that the students can understand better and see how this can affect them.

Last year, I organized many activities to mark our school's 100th anniversary. My students helped me. That is a good example. Not only did they learn a lot about the past of our school—which was attended by Marshall McLuhan, Neil Young and Fred Penner—but they also met those people. I organized a day dedicated to the school's history, and 52 people came to speak. All of them had graduated from Kelvin High School or had taught there. The students who introduced those individuals and served as their ambassadors had an opportunity to meet them and really establish connections between the past and the present. I think the experience was truly amazing.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Regarding what you said about authentic experiences, I think it's important for students to actively participate.

[Chris Young]

Yes. Exactly.