Official Languages Committee on May 21st, 2013

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I think that, as an educator, you understand that students learn more when they are actively involved than when the education is provided passively.

[Chris Young]

Yes.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

What kinds of immersion programs or activities allow students to participate actively, aside from actual immersion schools? You were telling me about certain experiences, such as trips to Europe. How do such initiatives help students participate and really get involved?

[Chris Young]

I did not touch on this in my presentation, but two years ago, I organized a trip with my students to visit World War I and World War II battlefields.

The trip was not just about going to Vimy Ridge and learning about its history—although that would have been a good experience too. A few months before our departure, I ordered the military records of the soldiers who had attended Kelvin High School. I assigned each of my students a soldier who had died in World War I or World War II. They conducted research for a few months. They visited the soldiers' homes— if they still existed—to take photos. They contacted their living descendants. We then went to the cemetery to visit the soldiers' graves. Each student made a presentation on their soldier's life. I think that was a truly authentic experience. In fact, I know it was because the students were so affected by the experience—I was taken by surprise.

As I said earlier, we made a video in order to share that experience with our school and community. We even had an opportunity to meet some of the descendants who came to visit the memorial chamber we had created to tell this story.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Dionne Labelle, go ahead.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony.

It may have looked like I wasn't listening earlier, but while I was taking in what was being said, I was doing research. I am mostly concerned about the statistical aspect Mr. Dion talked about.

We are meeting in committee to assess the immersion situation and the quality of the work done in immersion schools. At the same time, we need to look at how the federal funding from the Roadmap is being used to support English as a second language teaching.

I was looking at the Statistics Canada data. In Manitoba, in 2006, there were 75,545 students taking French as a second language courses. In 2011, there were 70,000 of them, or 5,000 fewer students. Meanwhile, between 2006 and 2011, there was an increase of 1,500 students in immersion. Effectively, 3,500 fewer students are being exposed to French. So youth bilingualism in Canada is either stagnating or declining altogether.

As legislators, we will soon face a dilemma. Should we continue to invest in support for immersion programs? When it comes to bilingualism, does our society benefit from investing in immersion programs, or should we redirect that money toward support for general French as a second language teaching programs? I am convinced that students who come out of immersion programs are individually more bilingual than the majority of those who take French as a second language courses at the primary or secondary level.

That being said, overall, youth bilingualism is declining, and fewer and fewer young people are exposed to French. What should we invest in? That is the key question we need to answer.

[Raymond Sokalski]

I may be an expert in one area, but not in another. I am not very familiar with immersion on a national level, but I know a bit about it on a provincial level. If my understanding is correct, the Manitoba statistics indicate that enrollment in immersion is increasing annually. Consequently, the total number of immersion graduates is also increasing. I hope that means you will notice a change, even if it may be imperceptible at first.

We see more and more anglophones who are living in French at home. My children are now 11 and 14 years of age. I have been familiar with the public speaking contest since participating in it as a child. I can tell you that an increasing number of families are faced with a dilemma every year. They wonder in which category to enrol their child. For instance, my children suggested that I enrol them in the francophone category because I speak to them in French. I am wondering about that myself.

I know that things have changed significantly since I was enrolled in the program in the 1970s and 1980s. I would not want to see immersion decline, as all the figures apparently indicate that fewer people are exposed to French. Immersion seems to be working well, and I do not want it to lose ground.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I understand what you are saying, but I would like to come back to Ms. Sims' comments about the basic education provided at the primary and secondary levels by teachers who don't have a good grasp of the language they are teaching. In my region, the situation is reversed. English teachers do not speak English. I think that's an important aspect. Shouldn't the federal government help the provinces ensure that the quality of core French teachers improves?

Ms. Sims.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

That is a great comment. It is important to answer those questions.

Let us take the example of the Université de Saint-Boniface. I work there, but I am not exactly married to the institution. However, I do believe that this is a good school where many authentic activities are taking place. It is the only francophone university, and it offers the FIT program—or French Immersion for Teachers. That program is aimed at people who teach core French. It supports their professional development and gives them an opportunity to see that the francophone community is alive in our area. That's very important.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That's the basis of my concern. I do not want Canada to have a two-tier education system in second language learning. That would mean having immersion schools where teachers are clearly amazing, and a public system where teachers do not meet the normal requirements for second language education.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Than you, Mr. Dionne Labelle.

Mr. Galipeau, the floor is yours.

My apologies—it is actually your turn, Mr. Chisu.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To the witnesses, thank you very much for your presentations.

I understand you learned a second language. You were exposed to the second language.

You have also been in Europe, right? Can you tell me how these languages are taught in Europe? In Switzerland they have four official languages.

You were speaking about Vimy Ridge. I was in Ypres, Belgium, which is not in Wallonia, but in a Dutch-speaking part.

[Chris Young]

That's right.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

It seems to me that the languages are taken up with ease. There are no problems around it. People love speaking more languages. For me, any language you speak is a culture multiplier.

I'm asking you, from your European experience, how can we get these two beautiful languages, these two great languages, le français and English, spoken in this beautiful country? We talk a lot about money and everything else, but our goal is really to have two languages spoken well.

What are your recommendations on this one? I know that the provinces deal with education and so on, and our hands are tied in certain ways by the Constitution and so on, but what can we do at the federal level to promote these languages? I'm not talking about forcing somebody to speak the language, i.e., otherwise the person won't get that job or something, but about how we teach with ease and show the beauty of these two languages.

What are your recommendations from your experience, including your experience in Europe, and probably in other milieux where you taught both languages?

[Raymond Sokalski]

When we speak of Europe, we're speaking of a continent where within the space of an hour or two you are completely immersed in a different culture, in a different society. That is the beauty and the headache of Europe. For me, it's the beauty. For the people who suffered war there in the past, it was the headache.

If you want to take a class on a trip from Spain to Flanders, you can organize that. It may take a two-day journey, an overnight somewhere, but you'll be there. For Canadians, we are defined by our geography. If I want to take a group of students from my high school to someplace where no one speaks English, that's an undertaking.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

We have la belle province; we have Quebec. Why are we not using the opportunities that we have?

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Absolutely. I also lived in Europe, and I work in Latin America. Sometimes I have to explain to my buddies down there that Quebec is 3,000 kilometres from where we live. They'll say, “I'm coming to Montreal. Can you come for coffee?” I say, “It's far.”

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Absolutely it would....

I've often asked how come some of the European countries—not all the European countries—get it so right with learning other languages.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

No, I'm from Europe, so I know how it is.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Yes, but there are certain.... For example, my French friends are super useless in English. My English friends are absolutely useless in any other language. But in Germany, they're awesome in English. In Switzerland, many speak other languages too.

You think, what is it that makes a certain context so fantastic? I don't know the answer, except for....

[A voice]

Proximity.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Proximity.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I just want to tell you that in the European Union, there are now 20 official languages. That is incentivizing people—

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Absolutely.