Official Languages Committee on Sept. 26th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mrs. Boucher, you may go ahead.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good morning everyone. I'm very glad to be with you today.

We've discussed a lot, specifically the action plan, of course. I don't know whether it's being written as we speak, but I hope it will be done before the election. I also hope that whichever party is in power after the election, the government continues to support you when it comes to official languages.

We've talked a lot about rights holders and issues involving Statistics Canada. Members on both sides of the House bombarded the people from Statistics Canada with questions that weren't always pleasant. The members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages work well as a team. I must confess that the answers to our questions left me stone cold.

I always ask myself one thing. We give Statistics Canada a lot of freedom to collect data. When it comes to the real numbers on official language minority communities and their day-to-day experience, do you think there's another way, a novel way, to collect that information? I'm talking about a way to paint a much more representative and comprehensive picture of the communities.

Yesterday I spoke with someone in Whitehorse, and that's where the idea to ask this question came from. I don't think it's something that's ever really been asked, either within government or at the community level. Do you think there's a more effective way to go about this? Currently, everything goes through Statistics Canada, but we're seeing a good bit of information being overlooked, whether it pertains to minorities, employment insurance or some other issue. I've met with people from the agency numerous times about all kinds of issues.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

[David Pajot]

Thank you for the question.

One option worth considering is having Statistics Canada partner with local universities. The university could be given a specific mandate and then do the work on the ground. Working together on certain questions could be effective. My sense is that, in some cases, the questions are poorly targeted. It always comes down to a political choice. Respondents are asked which language they speak, and it's clearly a political choice. I can easily say I speak English or French.

Earlier I told you that I speak three languages, when I actually speak four every day. As a French speaker here, in B.C., I know it's important to answer that I speak French, but I could just as easily say that I speak Czech or English at home. I speak Czech with my wife, and I speak English at work and with my friends, but less so at home. People need to be aware of the impact of their choice. It's important to explain to people that their answer will have an impact at the national level.

[Marie-France Lapierre]

The reason we are calling for changes to the act as far as Statistics Canada goes is that it's the only way to enumerate the vast majority of rights holders, if not all. The information on the language people speak is important, and we've looked at other ways of collecting that information. We've even spoken to the provincial ministry, which now has an obligation to help us seek out those numbers. The ministry sent a letter in support of the changes we are calling for.

Universities were mentioned, but some places are very remote, so it was suggested that people be asked to provide the information online. That proved quite challenging, though, because some people don't use the Internet. We can't rely on churches or schools, because some francophones don't have children.

Before I had children, my community involvement revolved around the arts, but not everyone attends artistic or sporting events. Not even Statistics Canada is able to reach everyone, despite being obligated to do so. In some smaller places, gathering the information will be easier, but it's a lot harder to find an alternative way of enumerating all of B.C.

I'm sorry. Although I like the idea, it's something we've already thought of and explored in terms of solutions.

[Marie-Andrée Asselin]

My intervention will be brief.

We talked about a permanent structure. There is no structure more permanent than Statistics Canada. There is also the fact that the statistics provided by Statistics Canada are authoritative. Statistics Canada publishes evidence-based facts that can be trusted. I don't know who else could have such convincing statistics.

[Jean-François Packwood]

Indeed, Statistics Canada was mentioned because it is the body equipped to collect figures.

Honestly, I don't have an answer, but we should open up the dialogue. There should be a much more direct and sustained exchange between Statistics Canada and the francophone and anglophone minority communities. The dialogue should be much more fluid. Currently, there are censuses, we wait for the data, we receive it, and that's it.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Have you already established a dialogue with Statistics Canada, or has there been very little?

[Jean-François Packwood]

Yes, we have, but the scope of the subjects is fairly broad. There should be a much more sustained dialogue.

[Marie-France Lapierre]

At the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique, when we took a case to court, we hired someone to find research to assess how many francophones there are to justify the existence of schools. The judge told us very clearly that, although the figures we had presented seemed valid, they would not be accepted because they did not come from Statistics Canada.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

And so it's a good thing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Boucher.

The last intervention goes to you, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much.

Again, I appreciate the fact that the witnesses are here today. It allows our committee to formally write a report that requests answers from the government. These answers will enable us to follow up.

According to the report by the Conseil scolaire francophone, the change to the Official Languages Act should clearly set out a duty to consult with respect to the lands. That's really the key. This is a long-term and essential solution not only in British Columbia, but also elsewhere in Canada and in the territories.

You say the following in your report:

However … the federal government's Action Plan … merely reiterates that the sale and transfer of federal property is complex and proposes no … solutions.

The solution may result from an amendment to the Official Languages Act. It would be a great victory across Canada. You've identified some interesting things in your testimony today. I would add that we can never get enough testimony, because we need to collect data. We are building something and that is why I mentioned data earlier.

The judge said that the data was not sufficient and that formal data was needed. It is quite clear that the judge should have looked at the case law and waited until the next census to ensure that these questions had been answered. This already exists in the common law.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

You have two minutes left.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I just wanted to highlight this point, which is really crucial.

The other point has to do with the linguistic cause, which is essential.

Mr. Arseneault, do you want to add anything?

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Since we have been here—and since we have been on this committee—we have heard witnesses talk about the watchdog role of the Official Languages Act.

We haven't talked about it today. I would like your comments.

I made good use of the expression “watchdog”. A dog has many teeth.

So I would like to hear from you quickly on that.

[Marie-France Lapierre]

This watchdog should be given a good set of dentures, because he currently doesn't have any teeth.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Are there any other comments? Tell us about your thoughts on this.

[Marc-André Ouellette]

It's simple. The way things work now, powers are given to one entity, and oversight to another. We should take a closer look. You can't be judge and jury all the time.

Currently, the Commissioner of Official Languages can conduct investigations. It is all there, but in fact and in the act, the real power lies elsewhere, not within the Office of the Commissioner. I think we should sort this out as soon as possible.

Ladies and gentlemen, the power to act is in your hands. You have the power to do so, and that is important. Otherwise, we will meet again in five years and we will talk about it again.

There you have it.

[Marie-France Lapierre]

We have already submitted a written recommendation. We could send it to you, in French and English.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Pajot, would you like to add anything?

[David Pajot]

I think it's necessary to raise public awareness. I'm talking about the people of British Columbia, but it must be the same thing elsewhere. We are part of a population that is very diverse, and it will be more and more so in the future.

Many people here, including close friends, see no interest in having a francophone presence in British Columbia. We are very far from Ottawa, Quebec, Moncton.

When we go to a bookstore—I am thinking in particular of a large bookstore in the region—we find that books in French are filed in the foreign book section. It is simply a matter of social representation in society.

In British Columbia and, once again, perhaps elsewhere in Canada, we are in real need of an effort to raise public awareness of the francophone fact.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, everyone.

We are going to suspend until 10:45 a.m.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for your presentations. I think they are very helpful.

Mrs. Boucher, do you have something brief to add?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes.

I'm going to ask the witnesses something. It may embarrass everyone, but I'm going to talk about politics.

Do you think the Commissioner of Official Languages should be apolitical?

[A voice]

No, this has never been the case.

[David Pajot]

It's like asking a researcher to be disinterested. It is very difficult.