Official Languages Committee on Dec. 11th, 2018

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Thank you very much.

The Ford government made these decisions in Ontario.

It's almost like they're striking the French community by removing funding for the university and removing the official languages commissioner.

Now that Quebec is actually taking a stand for the francophone minorities across Canada, what do you think should happen in Quebec with regard to the anglophone minority? Do you see them changing their perspective? What do you think anglophones in Quebec could do to gain back some of that power and to actually have their rights respected?

[Ronald F. Caza]

When you're an anglophone in Quebec, there's not much of a chance that you're going to get assimilated. Chances are, you're going to move away. You're going to want to live elsewhere. That's the option you have, if you want to exercise it. That's what we have to avoid. That's what we've seen as the consequence of making it very difficult. There has been, finally, a migration away, and that has weakened every linguistic minority across the country.

When you're looking at what can be done by the anglophone minority, I have to tell you that they need to ensure they continue to do what they've been doing so far, which is to build institutions that are recognized worldwide. One way of reaching out that could be done by the anglophone community is probably to reach out to the francophone minority now, in order to work with them to ensure being successful and maybe teach them how to build, for example, a university that becomes a world leader even though they are a linguistic minority in that province.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lambropoulos.

We will now move on to Mr. Généreux, who has two minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here with us, Mr. Caza, and for your remarks. I had quite a few questions I wanted to ask you, but instead I will move a motion.

If you allow it, Mr. Chair, I would like us to study the motion now.

I move:

That the Committee invite the Deputy Minister for Tourism, Official Languages and La Francophonie and the Deputy Minister for Training, Colleges and Universities of Ontario to appear before the Committee to provide an update on the situation of the Université de l'Ontario français.

I would like us to discuss this motion and adopt it unanimously so that we can meet these witnesses as soon as possible before tabling our final report.

When I was the mayor of La Pocatière, the RCM wanted to open recycling depots, but told us that they didn't have the money for that. However, the town of La Pocatière did have the means. We told the people of the RCM that we would provide funding and they could reimburse us later.

Could this type of arrangement be made between the federal and provincial governments? Could the federal government flat out offer Mr. Ford $84 million to fully fund the Université de l'Ontario français with the understanding that the province would repay that money later? The only thing the province would have to do is pay back the federal government once it had the money.

Would that be feasible?

[Ronald F. Caza]

What would be feasible and perhaps easier is to set an annual amount of $10 million. An agreement could be established whereby the federal government commits to contributing half the funding for the first four years. That would mean that during the first four years, the provincial government would not have to disburse anything.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Does the province really have to ask the federal government to do that? Could the federal government not deal with the university directly?

[Ronald F. Caza]

That question hasn't come up yet. We would have to see whether that is feasible. I haven't done any legal analysis on that, but based on my general knowledge of constitutional principles and the law that applies, I would say that if a request were submitted to the federal government arguing that this institution is essential, and the provincial government decided to refuse the money offered, that decision would be inconsistent with the province's constitutional obligations. I do not see how the province could justify refusing such an advance on funding, summarily or theoretically. Today, the province is arguing that it doesn't want to spend the money, but in this case that argument wouldn't be valid. The decision would consist in determining an arrangement for the next four years, but that decision could be deferred.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Caza.

Mr. Généreux, you moved a motion. I find it to be in order in this context.

You are free to go, Mr. Caza. Thank you very much for your presentation and your contribution to the work of the committee. I believe I speak on behalf of all my colleagues when I say congratulations on everything you do for the francophonie.

We will break for a few minutes and then continue the discussion amongst committee members.

Mr. Généreux, you have a question?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Could I ask Mr. Caza one last question? I would like to clarify something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Yes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Caza, let me ask the question very directly.

At this time, can the federal government deal directly with the Université de l'Ontario français without going through the province?

[Ronald F. Caza]

I think the answer is no, but I can check and get back to you later. If the provincial government refused to meet its constitutional obligations and also refused an offer for funding from the federal government, then a court order might be needed to force the provincial government to accept the situation.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Caza. We will now suspend the meeting for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

We will resume the meeting, which is now public.

The motion was moved when the meeting was public. I propose that we discuss it now and then move in camera to discuss the work of the committee. Do we have agreement? Yes.

I will read the motion that I have before me:

That the Committee invite the Deputy Minister for Tourism, Official Languages and La Francophonie and the Deputy Minister for Training, Colleges and Universities of Ontario to appear before the Committee to provide an update on the situation of the Université de l'Ontario français.

We will now debate this motion.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I see no problem with the motion. This is a battle with Ontario, but I think the minister, the deputy minister here... I agree with the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Arseneault?

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Généreux what information are you hoping to get from the Deputy Minister for Tourism, Official Languages and La Francophonie? The federal government commitment is up to 50%. You heard Mr. Caza earlier. What information do you want to get for us?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

This is a public meeting and Mr. Caza's response might have an impact on the federal government's offer to the province. If the province rejected that offer, the lawyers could seek an injunction. Essentially, there needs to be pressure. These deputy ministers may have information that we do not have. They deal with these files every day. Unlike us who meet here once or twice a week, they have been talking about this file for three weeks. I think they would have some particularly relevant information to share with us.

We heard what Mr. Caza just said. Obviously, we don't want to end up in court in five years. Your minister publicly said that she was prepared to fund the university for the first four years, so where is her offer?

We just learned that if the federal government offered to fund the university for the first four years, the province would be forced to make a decision and if it rejected the offer, an injunction would have to be sought because this would be unconstitutional. The province would have no choice but to accept the offer.

Mr. Caza's intervention is very important. He just informed us that notwithstanding the university and its funding, we are touching on what is at the heart of the vitality of linguistic minority communities in Canada and that is much bigger than the $80 million needed for the university project.

The Ontario government's decision goes beyond the university project by far. I sincerely think that our report or our recommendations have to state that the Ontario government has no choice but to fund this project. A constitutionalist, an experienced lawyer, just told us exactly what to do. If we are not inviting these stakeholders to come here to tell us where things stand in the process and what they think, then I don't know what we're doing here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Mrs. Fortier, you have the floor.

[Mona Fortier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I completely agree with this motion except that we should add two more people. I'm not sure how to go about it, but I think we should meet with the Deputy Minister Responsible for Francophone Affairs, Marie-Lison Fougère, who also plays a major role in the Université de l'Ontario français project.

The other person is Dyane Adam, head of the planning committee for the implementation of the future Université de l'Ontario français. She is in talks with the provincial government and would be in a better position to provide us with information on the financial requests.

I agree with inviting the proposed two deputy ministers, but we should also invite Ms. Fougère and Ms. Adam. Do we need to propose an amendment to the motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Do we have agreement on the amendment?

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

That's okay with me. I have a supplementary question. It seems that the House will be adjourning tomorrow evening. If that happens, could the committee sit on Thursday anyway if we invited these witnesses to appear that day? This is urgent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

I believe we are inviting them when Parliament resumes.