Evidence of meeting #44 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interpreters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominique Bohbot  Distinguished Member, Association of Linguistic Services Managers
Nicole Gagnon  Canada's Lead for Advocacy, International Association of Conference Interpreters
Jim Thompson  Communication Counsel, International Association of Conference Interpreters
Melinda Chartrand  Chair, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
Roger Paul  Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
Isabelle Laurin  Executive Director, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta
Jean-Pierre Hachey  Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

11:45 a.m.

Distinguished Member, Association of Linguistic Services Managers

Dominique Bohbot

Let me clarify something.

During my remarks about translation memory, I was specifically referring to the “translation memory” tool, a tool that matches up languages for the purpose of weighting of supplier contracts.

To answer your question, Ms. Lapointe, we at the universities are completely open to and willing to work with and begin discussions with the translation bureau. We already have experience with the translation bureau and are prepared to do that. We think it would be relatively easy to set that up. We have a lot of experience with the private sector.

Students are happy to go to the translation bureau. Why? Because the translation bureau works for all departments, covering a wide range of subjects and specialized languages. The focus in translation today is specialized languages: legal, economic, medical, pharmaceutical, technical, scientific, and so forth. The translation bureau includes all of them. That makes it a flagship that could offer our students tremendous advantages, which in turn could have an impact on Canadian society and on our economy.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you.

Would you like to add a few brief remarks, Ms. Gagnon?

11:45 a.m.

Canada's Lead for Advocacy, International Association of Conference Interpreters

Nicole Gagnon

Yes. I completely agree with Ms. Bohbot and I would add that, until now, the translation bureau and the University of Ottawa have worked together to train new interpreters; that this must continue. The fear right now about the proposed system is that it alienates professional interpreters, considering that the Government of Canada is clearly the largest employer of interpreters, but not the only one. There is also a private sector, and the professional interpreters who are displaced by the lowest bidders will go to the private sector. This has in fact already begun. There is a brain drain. As a result, you will get the services of the lowest bidder when you hold your committee meetings.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you.

11:45 a.m.

Communication Counsel, International Association of Conference Interpreters

Jim Thompson

Just one point that I think is important to make here is that the lowest bid has already been implemented, and has been for a year. Even though the RFSO has not closed and will not close until March 9, the lowest bid is already in place.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Ms. Gagnon, you referred earlier to the best fit and assigning contracts on that basis. I understand that it can be difficult to get the best fit. Can you give us an example of when this was problematic and it was not the best fit? You talked about dropping this approach in favour of a system that awards contracts on the basis of best fit. Can you give us an example of when using the lowest bidder was not favourable?

11:50 a.m.

Canada's Lead for Advocacy, International Association of Conference Interpreters

Nicole Gagnon

Forgive me for saying so, but that is easy. If we send the lowest bidders, who do not have expertise in law, to the Supreme Court, I can guarantee you that the results will be interesting.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Ms. Bohbot, you mentioned security earlier. Your reference to the transfer of information between servers concerns me. At this committee, we have talked about the issue of servers. When Google Translate is used, the information is sent and does not stay on the user's server. That is very worrisome to me. I am interested to hear more if you would care to elaborate.

11:50 a.m.

Distinguished Member, Association of Linguistic Services Managers

Dominique Bohbot

Yes, we are very concerned about this ourselves. That is why we strongly recommend professional Canadian firms that emphasize quality and that also have proven security standards. That is because they work for major Canadian banks, for instance, which have very high security standards. If the lowest bidder gets the contract, it has to be cost-effective in some way.

What happens once a text is sent? It is not clear, but we know. Professional Canadian firms have standards and specific criteria. Canadian standards and other security and risk-management measures are in place.

As to documents that are sent to other firms that might be well-established, but that also have a large structure in other countries, the text might be translated overnight, taking advantage of the time difference. These firms are able to deliver the work much faster, but who is doing the work? Are they professionals and do those people understand Canadian culture?

Let me give you an example. In the case of a text pertaining to a document about the Canadian tax system, who other than a Canadian could translate it? Would a text about the tax system in another French-speaking country be accurate, even if translated by a professional translator?

We have tax laws and specific local features.

I'm not sure if I answered your question.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Yes, thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Ms. Bohbot.

John Nater for four minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. I found this to be a fascinating conversation so far.

I wanted to follow up a little bit on the concept of accreditation within the government context. When we undertook our review of the Translation Bureau, we often heard examples of phantom translators within departments, people who are hired within departments as linguistic consultants or language consultants who are actually doing translation work.

From an interpreter's standpoint, are there examples of this happening in departments as we speak, where people who are not accredited are in fact providing services for, perhaps, smaller conferences or departmental conferences rather than requiring an accredited interpreter to do that work? Are there examples that you're aware of?

11:50 a.m.

Canada's Lead for Advocacy, International Association of Conference Interpreters

Nicole Gagnon

Yes, absolutely. That is what we are concerned about. At this time, whatever goes through the Translation Bureau is accredited. The Translation Bureau calls on accredited interpreters. Our concern is that this will cease.

If you ask us why, first, I will tell you it's basically because the accreditation process no longer exists in translation.

Second, at this time, the Government of Canada has a dual stream. You have those conferences that go through the Translation Bureau, and you have those conferences that are run by a government department that calls on the private sector, but it does not necessarily call on government-accredited interpreters. That is what we are seeking from the minister, that whether it be through the Translation Bureau or directly via the private sector, in all cases only interpreters accredited by the Government of Canada provide the service. The Government of Canada should have just the one standard, a standard of quality for all conferences. There shouldn't be this double standard.

February 7th, 2017 / 11:55 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I want to follow up, and then I'll get comments from both sets of witnesses, on the recommendation of moving the Translation Bureau to be under Heritage Canada rather than under Public Services, as it currently stands. Within the context of that, as well, is its status as a special operating body.

If you were recommending to the government that in fact the move be made to Heritage rather than Public Services, what other recommendations would you propose along with that, in terms of changing the governance structure of the institution? How would you like to see the Translation Bureau change, from a governance perspective, under the guidance or under the responsibility of Heritage Canada? What types of specific changes would you like to see to the governance structure of the institution?

11:55 a.m.

Distinguished Member, Association of Linguistic Services Managers

Dominique Bohbot

I think there are several options. Speaking about Heritage Canada, back on October 21 we very briefly met with Mélanie Joly. We handed a letter from our committee to her press agent, and we followed up, and she never replied to us. So I have no other comment.

Obviously the Translation Bureau must be repositioned somewhere else, not with Public Services and Procurement Canada. We are thinking about the office of the Prime Minister, or maybe the Department of Industry, or Heritage Canada, but definitely the place for the Translation Bureau is not where it is now.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Ms. Bohbot, Ms. Gagnon, and Mr. Thompson, thank you for your excellent presentations. They have been informative for us all.

We will take a break for a few minutes to let the next witnesses come in.

Mr. Thompson, would you like to say something?

11:55 a.m.

Communication Counsel, International Association of Conference Interpreters

Jim Thompson

May I have the last word, Mr. Chairman?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Go ahead.

11:55 a.m.

Communication Counsel, International Association of Conference Interpreters

Jim Thompson

I want to say thank you to this committee on behalf of the association for doing this work. It's very helpful and important. Without your attention and care, these sorts of issues would not be aired in this way. All of you have had an open door policy; we've been in to see many of you.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much, Mr. Thompson.

11:55 a.m.

Distinguished Member, Association of Linguistic Services Managers

Dominique Bohbot

I just wanted to thank you very much, on behalf of the 15,000 translators and the 10 associations that I represent here today. Thank you for listening to us.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

We will break for five minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

We will now resume.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), we are undertaking a study of the issues relating to the enumeration of rights holders under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

We are very pleased to welcome this afternoon Ms. Melinda Chartrand and Mr. Roger Paul of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, as well as Ms. Isabelle Laurin and Mr. Jean-Pierre Hachey, of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta.

Welcome to you all.

Let us begin with the representatives of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, who will have about 10 minutes to give their presentation. We will then move on to Ms. Laurin. We will then go around the table so our colleagues can comment and ask questions.

Ms. Chartrand, please go ahead. You have about 10 minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Melinda Chartrand Chair, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to introduce myself. I am Melinda Chartrand, chair of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones. First of all, thank you for inviting us to appear as part of this important study on the enumeration of rights holders under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires is a non-profit organization representing Canada's 28 minority francophone and Acadian school boards. These school boards provide educational services in French to 160,000 students in nearly 650 schools.

The federation represents the interests of its members in nine provinces and three territories. Minority francophone school boards are responsible for providing their communities with the education system to which they are entitled under section 23 of the charter. Their mission is to counter assimilation in minority language communities and promote their vitality. In order to achieve that objective, minority francophone school boards need to know their potential clientele and, more specifically, the number of parents with rights under section 23 of the charter. This is why the subject of your study is so important to us.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Roger Paul, executive director of the federation, who will explain in greater detail why it is essential that the census be changed.

12:10 p.m.

Roger Paul Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Thank you, Ms. Chartrand.

Hello everyone and thank you for welcoming us here.

Like any organization responsible for providing a service, francophone school boards need to know their potential clientele. The rules for admission to francophone school boards vary from province to province. Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees three categories of people the right to have their children educated in the French language in a minority setting.

The first category are Canadian citizens whose mother tongue is French. The second category are Canadian citizens who received a significant portion of their primary school instruction at a French-language school in Canada. Finally, the third category are Canadian citizens with a child who attends or attended a French-language school in Canada. These are the three categories of rights holders. Belonging to one of these three categories gives you this right.

On a number of occasions, the Supreme Court of Canada has explained that the rights provided for in section 23 of the charter apply where numbers warrant. As a result, it is vital for minority school boards and provincial and territorial governments to have complete, reliable data so that they can understand both the size and the distribution of their potential clientele. This information is also vital in order to properly evaluate the extent of their constitutional obligations under section 23 of the charter.

Currently, the census does not provide an accurate count of rights holders under section 23 of the charter. The census is the only source of data that can be used to evaluate the number of children who are eligible to attend a French-language school. Many important decisions, including regarding the construction of new schools, are based on these data.

Unfortunately, the current census form provides an incomplete picture of the number of children eligible to attend our schools. Only the first category of rights holder parents is the subject of a census question, the question regarding mother tongue.

As a result, the census data greatly underestimate the number of parents in this category as the question discourages those with more than one mother tongue from giving more than one response.

The question is worded as follows:

What is the language that this person first learned at home in childhood and still understands? [...] 1: French 2: English 3: Other—specify

Thus, respondents are asked to indicate “the” language they learned first. This refers to a single language.

What happens though in the case of a child from an exogamous—linguistically mixed—family who learned French and another language at the same time? Those individuals are encouraged to choose between their mother tongues, and they will often choose the language they speak the most frequently. Do you know what language that is? It is English, of course.

The instructions accompanying this question also encourage individuals to choose a single language. They say that the person should indicate two languages only if they used them equally before starting school and if they still understand them.

Section 23 of the charter also identifies two additional categories of rights holders, which are not based on mother tongue, but on the language of the schools attended by the parents and children. The census does not ask any questions about this. Consequently, two out of three categories of rights holders are completely ignored by the census.

The census does not ask any questions about the language of instruction, either of parents or their children. It ignores the fact that a significant number of children of exogamous couples truly learn the French language only once they are enrolled in school, and not at home as their mother tongue. When these students become adults, they are entitled to enroll their children in a French-language school, but the census does not count them.

It also ignores the fact that French-language schools in many provinces and territories can accept students whose parents are not rights holders under section 23 of the Charter, and thus grant rights under section 23 to the parents and to the child.

These shortcomings in the census have an adverse effect on the ability of FNCSF member school boards to carry out their planning, including capital planning, and to justify their requests to government for capital funding. These shortcomings have adversely effects on the vitality of minority official language communities throughout the country.

Statistics Canada must modify the mandatory short form census questionnaire so that all rights holders under section 23 of the Charter are counted. Reliable data on the number of children with at least one parent with rights under section 23 of the Charter are necessary for that provision to be fulfilled. This was also the conclusion of the Supreme Court of British Columbia last fall in a ruling in which it found that the province of British Columbia must collect that data. It is clear, however, that the simplest, most effective and reliable way to provide access to such data is through the census.

Moreover, such data should be collected for the entire country, providing numbers of rights holders in specific areas such as school catchment areas, which only the census can do.

The Government of Canada, through the census, is therefore in the best position to ensure that minority Francophone school boards, and also provincial and territorial governments, have reliable data on the number of rights holders under section 23 of the Charter.

Thank you for your attention.

We will be pleased to answer your questions.