Evidence of meeting #47 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was schools.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
There are thousands of volunteers.
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
Absolutely.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I am sorry. I could go on talking about this for a long time.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
Again, thank you, because we are all very much aware of what you need and what's important. I think this study on the census, and the other thing that the Conseil du Trésor will do about the regulations, will be very important to determine what we need to do to keep the vitality of our official language communities. That's really important for us.
In Drummond, for instance, we have small communities like South Durham and Trenholm. They want to stay alive, but it's difficult for them because they're in a region. It's not like in Montreal; it's another situation absolutely. We have the Eastern Townships School Board there. We also have an elementary school in Drummondville. To keep them alive, to keep them open, we need to have good data. That's why I understand the importance of a better census and better regulations, which is what the Conseil du Trésor is going to do.
I'm happy that you keep in touch with StatsCan. Are you also in touch with Conseil du Trésor about the new regulations?
12:45 p.m.
Director General, Quebec Community Groups Network
Yes, absolutely. We are working with Carsten Quell and those folks. Stephen Thompson, who would have come today but was otherwise occupied, is very much in touch. We're not just keeping abreast of everything; we're also giving out our information, giving our input. It's very important to us to ensure that both the foundational pieces around definitions and how we treat the data are done.
In fact, I will just mention to the committee that one of the important things is the CROP survey that is done with the help of Health Canada every five years. It's on the CHSSN website. It has 3,000 responses. It has been done three times in a row. I would invite you to go and look. I mean, it's not the census, and that's where I worry that if we went to survey rather than census...but it gives us an indication.
With a multitude of tools, with surveys of our community and certainly the census, that gives us a good picture. We can talk about the community and the educational aspect as well.
Thank you.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
I would like to go back to what I was saying earlier, so I am going to change the subject a bit.
When you were talking about anglophone education earlier, Mr. Tabachnick, you said that your schools have become bigger. Since the charter was adopted, have you been aware of any legal battles in Quebec for schools to be built, with the government refusing because the number of students was too low?
12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
No, I do not recall any case going to court in order to get an anglophone school. The Government of Quebec operates according to a formula that considers a number of factors: the number of students within a 20 km area, the number of children, whether they have to cross a bridge to get there, and so on. There are all kinds of criteria. However, it does take us five or six years to convince the government to provide more.
I do not recall any case going to court. Perhaps there have been, but I do not recall any.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Still on that same subject, you should know that francophones outside Quebec have had to fight long and hard for years and years. First, section 23 of the charter, then the 1990 Mahé case, stated that there had to be a sufficient number of francophones to justify education in French. Now we have to rely on Statistics Canada, and its famous forms, to provide us with the main tool that allows us to justify that number. The evidence we need to convince provincial governments to build schools in francophone minority settings is not something we control.
Could you confirm whether I am in error or whether what I read is correct? I am referring to the well-known Quebec right for people to be able to go to school in English based on certificates of eligibility. I do not want to compare francophones outside Quebec with anglophones in Quebec. However, I find those certificates to be permissive. When I read that, I tell myself that, if the anglophone community is organized, it is easy to do. Clearly, it must know that it has that right.
You say that the anglophone community in Quebec is being eroded. Let me ask you this question, which I focus strictly on the anglophone community in Quebec, excluding allophones. Am I right to believe that those certificates of eligibility allow anglophones in minority settings to have easier access to anglophone schools because those certificates of eligibility are easier to obtain?
Earlier, Mr. Généreux was talking about his children who went to a French school even though his wife is anglophone. Mr. Généreux’s grandchildren therefore have access to English schools because it can be proven that their grandmother’s first language is English. Am I right to say that?
12:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
You can blame the Supreme Court of Canada. Its judges defined exactly what the provincial government's obligations are in this regard.
The anglophone population is quite large: 1 million people. In this context, the Government of Quebec has an obligation to provide us with as many services as possible. It's not the same thing in the case of Franco-Manitobans or Fransaskois. I am aware of the situation. However, in our circumstances, the number of students is high enough in our community for us to ask for the highest level of services possible.
I agree with you: it's much easier for us. It's simple, we complete a form where we write that the students have the right to go to the anglophone school and it's done.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
I'm glad to hear you say it. That's my understanding about the anglophones.
I can also take the example of my colleague Linda Lapointe. Since she and her spouse are francophones, their children could not have access to the English-language school. I understand that.
12:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association
Exactly.
The objective criteria are so restrictive that it's quite easy to determine which people have this right in a community. It's an advantage in negotiating a place, a school, or building a new school.
However, these same marginal criteria in turn exclude all sorts of members from the English-speaking community. There are families of Scottish descent and others who have undoubtedly spoken English for decades, but whose subsequent generations have legally lost the right to attend anglophone schools simply because some members of their families attended francophone schools in the 1960s.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
But the way I had read the documentation I have here, I thought that if, for example, the grandparents were anglophone—
12:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Quebec Community Groups Network
Not if they went to...if they went to school in the sixties, in the Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal, but in—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
That's true; it's after 1977, right.
So it's before 1977.
12:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Quebec Community Groups Network
That's a period of time when people in our community were saying, “I could get my kid into Brébeuf. It will be great for their career.” And it was great for their career.
12:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Quebec Community Groups Network
But that door is closed. That's an example that I take from my personal experience, but there are lots of examples. There are many composite families where they just missed the criteria.
So it's true, we could go to the provincial government and say we have the numbers and we have the right, build us a school. However, those numbers are based on a set of rules that are very strict.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater
That wraps up our round.
We do have a few minutes left. If there are a couple of short questions, we could fit them in.
Bernard, very briefly.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Okay.
Do you think it's a form of discrimination?