Official Languages Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I am indeed referring to the Survey on the Vitality of Official-Language Minorities, which came out in 2006. You are familiar with it, then.

Did the survey produce compelling data?

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

It's been a while. I would say that the realities of the English-speaking and French-speaking communities aren't that different. I can't say much more than that because I haven't looked at the 2006 census for quite some time. I remember that, at the time, the report was seen as significant. It's worth revisiting. It's 2017 now, so it might be a good idea to review how things are going.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Perhaps the study should be conducted more often.

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

That may well be appropriate.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The study was done in 2006. Then the provincial government identified who the rights holders were. That means the numbers aren't up to date. A census was done in 2016, but the questions weren't specific enough.

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

Precisely.

What's more, Quebec may not consider it to be in its best interests to have as clear a picture as we, in the minority community, would like. The responsibility for the study, then, would really have to fall to the federal government. In some provinces, the communities have an easier time obtaining or checking the numbers. In Quebec, however, as in other provinces I'm sure, the effort really has to come from the federal government.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You talked about getting good data. How would that help you? I realize that it makes planning easier, but I'd like you to talk about that because it will all be on the record. What does having access to sound data enable you to do?

[Geoffrey Chambers]

In our talks with the provincial government, it would help us obtain resources for communities where the English-speaking population needs or is entitled to English-language institutions.

In addition, a dialogue is ongoing around the details governing the rules of access. Sound data would pave the way for some open-mindedness around the possibility of certain categories of children being allowed to attend anglophone schools, be they actual rights-holders or potential rights-holders.

The number of students in some cities and regions can warrant either the existence or closure of an English-language school. It is therefore necessary to have detailed figures, just like those provided by the census. We could use the data to oppose school closures in rural or suburban areas with a smaller anglophone presence.

Reliable figures would open the door to all kinds of other discussions with the provincial government.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chambers.

I have to leave the meeting now, so before I turn the floor over to Mr. Choquette, I will ask Mr. Nater to take over as chair.

Thank you again. It was a pleasure to meet with you.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for taking the time to be here today. I remember the last time you were here, when we spoke about the importance of a school to a region, to a community. Education is a big part of the vitality of a community. It's really important.

The decision made in the British Columbia case for the right to go to school, to have good numbers, to have good data, I think is important. I think it should ring a bell for this government that right now we don't have good data. With regard to saying that the province has the responsibility, they have other politiques that make it not a priority for them to have good data.

I want to hear from you on why you think it's so important for the federal government to have good data and to make them public so that you can access them and say, “You see? These are good numbers. We need services.” Perhaps you could explain why it is so important.

[Geoffrey Chambers]

I'd like to start by saying that I think your point of departure is exactly right. The Maillé decision structure is the public policy context in which official language minority education particularly should be viewed.

The schools are important. The school boards are important. Control and management of the process of constructing an educational setting for the study body is important. The school boards provide additional structural support as one of the dimensions of community activity. These are buildings where the scout troop can meet, but they're much more than that as cultural and focus resources. All of those additional and ancillary qualities are not just a mistake. They are inherently part of the official language minority support structure that official language minorities across the country are entitled to have.

It is laid out in detail in Maillé what we need to do. I think you went from that starting point to exactly where we want to go. What we want to do, understanding those principles, is to try to apply them fairly and constructively in the context of the English-speaking community in Quebec. Without the data, without being able to say, for example, there are this many potential students in this big a community, then we can't make good arguments for keeping the school open or opening a school here. The effect of there being a school is important for the students and it's important for the community in a much broader way.

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

May I say something?

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Yes, of course.

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

Mr. Tabachnick said that youth sustain the educational sector—elementary, secondary, post-secondary, and the rest. We come at it as well from the community sector. Youth are our only anchor to sustain the vitality of our community in Quebec, so the more that youth are interested and engaged in Quebec, the better we are.

From that point of view, the education system is fundamental. We're all interested in youth, but they go through our schools, and as we close small schools, there is less capacity to help the students, to talk to them about the culture of the English-speaking community, the promotion of a cultural community under section 23. So it's not just about the English school, it's about our community in those schools.

We differ a little bit from the francophones in that English is not at risk, but the communities are at risk. The schools are fundamental to our community in those small places. We need to do more work to understand how to manage not just the schools but also the system so that we can reassure ourselves that 20 or 30 years from now we will still have an English-speaking community. It's mostly by the schools; we can't have immigrants and.... Also, people adhere to the English-speaking community not just because they have kids in school but they want access to health and social services and those things.

You know, by and large, the young people are our future. We need better data to be able to manage not just the school system but the vitality of our community.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Go ahead, Mr. Tabachnick.

[Marcus Tabachnick]

Just briefly—although I don't do anything briefly—questions about whether or not people are rights holders will help the people who do not know that they're rights holders understand that they actually have the rights holders in their families.

The example I can give you is that every year, our nine school boards receive hundreds of calls—hundreds is an underestimate—from people asking if they would be eligible. Or else they show up at the door of the school or the school board and say they want to register. Now there is a process they have to go through. It will help people understand that a family member, if they meet the criteria, is a rights holders. That will help the boards and the community identify the potential community for us, because it then allows people access to our basic service, which is education, but as Madame said, it is the other services that go along with the school. In small communities, the English school is the hub, the social centre. It's not just a school, it's where people go for information, for service, for support, and for meetings. If you close a small school in a small community, you close the community. That is serious for us.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Mr. Choquette.

Mr. Vandal, you have six minutes.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you.

Welcome to the committee.

I'm going to try to follow the ball here. Section 23 identifies three categories for Canadian citizens who have rights to minority education. The francophone communities are only using one of those categories, which is part of the problem—in fact, the problem—but for anglophone communities, section 23 is not used at all. Section 23 is contingent on section 59. There needs to be a proclamation by the Government of Quebec in order for section 23 to kick in.

Am I accurately describing what needs to happen?

[Marcus Tabachnick]

They've opted out of one section, paragraph 23(1)(a), which allows people who have had their education in English outside of Quebec access to English schools. The Government of Quebec does not recognize that part.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Okay.

You've probably said this, but how exactly is the data collected for English minority communities in Quebec?

[Marcus Tabachnick]

Basically, in terms of education, it's the number of families who have applied for eligibility certificates from the provincial government. That's the basic method of telling us how many students there are potentially.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

It's the number of families who apply for eligibility certificates. So that is largely word of mouth? You have identified that many people don't know that they have these rights.

[Marcus Tabachnick]

You can apply for an eligibility certificate with the government or through your local school board. You fill out a form, a school board submits it to the government, and assuming there isn't a problem with it, then you get a nice blue piece of paper that says you're eligible.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

And that's for all the children in the family.