Official Languages Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you for being here. I'm learning lots from the conversation today. It's very informative.

I'm going to go back to section 23 of charter, because the whole purpose today is to look at the census and to determine how the census can be used to determine who these rights holders are.

We are talking about francophones outside Quebec and anglophones in Quebec.

If the question does change and we're better informed, and the census does a much better job of identifying who the rights holders are, how would that empower the school board to advocate? You're saying right now that people don't know they are rights holders. If you have a better sense that in Deux-Montagnes there are more people who are rights holders than your numbers determined, how would you then go about informing them that they are rights holders?

[Marcus Tabachnick]

First of all, we don't know what the numbers are—

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Yes.

[Marcus Tabachnick]

—but it's presuming that there are more.

Well, it's a multipronged approach. Obviously, we have an information campaign that we could embark upon in terms of asking people whether they know if they are rights holders: “The census tells us that there are this many, but we don't know who you are. Come and learn who we are.”

That's certainly one of the things thing that—

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Would you be able to identify and specifically go into an area that you've identified?

[Marcus Tabachnick]

That's right.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

However, from what I understand—and I'm talking about learning today—the anglophone community in that area would not be able to have a court action to say, “We know that the census shows there are people here who are not served by a school, and we want the education department to build a school in that area.”

Am I correct in understanding that's how it works? You would not be able to launch a legal action against the Government of Quebec to do that.

[Marcus Tabachnick]

No, but it would start from registering for the schools and the demand creating the procedure that will allow for a school to eventually be built.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

That's interesting.

On another point, I'm a francophone in Ontario, and I received my schooling in French in Ontario. As you mentioned earlier, in our schools as well, we take the same English as the English school board would take, so it's equivalent. By the time we've graduated from our high schools, we've taken the same English courses.

You mentioned that your students are pretty much perfectly bilingual when they come out because they follow the same curriculum in certain cases. Can you elaborate on how the school board goes about creating these students who are very bilingual?

[Marcus Tabachnick]

We have a variety of immersion programs, from

the first language program,

where they're using exactly the same teaching materials and teaching methods that are in the French schools, to partial immersion, to later immersion. There are all types.

At the end of the day, at the end of secondary V in Quebec—we go to grade 11—we expect every student to be, at a minimum, conversant. The objective is to have them bilingual enough to live, work, and stay in Quebec when they're done with their schooling.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Awesome.

Mr. Arseneault, did you have a question?

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do I have time, Mr. Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Yes.

[Geoffrey Chambers]

Can I add a point on that very quickly?

In taking the Ontario example and comparing it to Quebec, the provincial government will characterize the rights holders as being exactly the same kinds of number as the certificate holders. That is a misrepresentation, in our view. Imagine, in Ontario, if there were some kind of formal qualification required to establish that you were a member of the French-speaking minority, and it had managed, as a matter of practical reasons, to exclude a lot of people who themselves think that they are, or actually are legally.... That wouldn't be a desirable situation.

We want to be able to get into that dialogue, and we need the data.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Mr. Arseneault.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here.

It's very interesting to have the other point of view, from another minority in Canada, being all, except Linda on this side of the table, “francophones outside Quebec”. I hate that expression.

I am a francophone outside Quebec and you are anglophones in Quebec.

I've heard Ms. Martin-Laforge's answer concerning the census. It would at least give you what I would call a precise, accurate picture of your community

if the questions were changed and all.

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

Absolutely.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Okay.

Am I correct, in interpreting the Quebec law, that it cannot help the school board to build more schools or to fill up the schools? Am I correct to say that? That census for the Quebec reality won't help at all to grow your school or build other schools somewhere else in Quebec in—

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

I don't want to answer for Marcus. He's going to answer for himself.

From the QCGN's perspective, the more information we have, the better the case we can make. From a policy perspective and from an advocacy perspective, we need to know the numbers. In Quebec, we have to deal with the fact that Quebec counts us as English mother tongue numbers, and then there's a whole other group, the allophones.

The allophones and the anglophones in terms of “first official language spoken” make up over a million of us. We're almost at counterpoints with the province in terms of how we view our community and how the community wants us to view them. As for who comes in, such as the immigrants who come in who count themselves in terms of first official language spoken, they can get services in English at our bilingual institutions. They can get services in English if there's infrastructure there.

We work very hard in health and social services as one sector—and in that sector for sure—to ensure that those people who want access to services in English get them. It's sometimes harder in the Gaspé, but we work really hard. We have the numbers, we make inroads, and we use those numbers to give more access to our community.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes, I do understand your answer. It's a very good answer, but my question was more in the context of the school boards, schools, and kids, and—

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

Yes, but in my answer, I'm just preparing this for Marcus to say—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

—that if we had the numbers for the schools, we could probably do more work around that as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

We're over the time for this round, but why don't we hear from Mr. Tabachnick? Then we'll go to the next round.

[Marcus Tabachnick]

First of all, thank you, mother.