Official Languages Committee on April 11th, 2017

[Stephen Thompson]

Thank you. I will exercise my right to do that.

This seems to be a fairly simple question to answer. There is legislation requiring federally appointed judges to have reached a certain level of bilingualism. You give them a language test and it's part of the process.

Getting back to what Mr. Donnelly said earlier, you're focusing on the judges. You're going to fix the judges, and every judge in Canada is going to be bilingual. Imagine every judge in Canada being bilingual. It doesn't matter, because the clerk isn't bilingual, the people around the judge aren't bilingual, and the decisions of the courts of appeal aren't being translated into both languages.

It's not only the judges, but the system.

It's the system around the judge. That's the level this committee might want to consider.

I will just bring up that Justice Canada right now, for example, funds linguistic training for provincially appointed judges. Therefore, there is an appetite in the provinces, including in Quebec, for the federal government to support linguistic training for areas of provincial jurisdiction, even in the provincial courts. The hook is there already. It's a matter of expanding that to include the people who support the courts.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Arseneault.

Ms. Boucher, go ahead.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, gentlemen. I am pleased that you are here with us.

We have just heard a different point of view.

I come from Quebec. When I worked for the public safety minister at the time, they thought I was the most bilingual person, when I would say “Hello” and “One moment, please”. That's how it is in Quebec City.

Does Bill 101 in Quebec have an impact on all the other systems, such as the legal and health care systems? Is it preventing us from moving forward in the rest of the community?

[Michael Bergman]

The attitude in Quebec is that English is a second language, but it is best to speak French. If you want good service, you have to speak French.

Let me give you an example, which may be a little extreme. I was in a courtroom in a courthouse. My opponent, the judge and I were all anglophones. There was no client, it was only a plea on a point of law. Everyone spoke French. Increasingly, the language of Shakespeare no longer works in Quebec.

Is it a matter of courtesy for the majority? Is it the fear that, if I speak English, no one will listen to me, give me better service or something along those lines? It's hard to say.

The “conventional wisdom”

dictates that if you really want something, such as good service, you have to speak French.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes, we receive the same comments.

[Stephen Thompson]

I'd just like to say that it's probably the same for francophones outside Quebec. That's a minority experience.

I received a speeding ticket a few years ago and I went into the cour municipale in Mont-St-Hilaire. I was nervous. I wanted to fight the ticket, because I didn't think I did it. I was nervous, because I wanted to plead my case. I wanted to go in front of a judge and say that I didn't do this and that I wasn't there. I walked in and I was very nervous, because I didn't know enough French or the right words in French to be able to say that.

I walked in and all the signs were in French. Everything is in French. I found the crown prosecutor. My wife had drilled me on what to say in French, and I did my absolute best to say what I had to say. She said, “Stop, sir. You have a right to do this in English.” Do you know the sense of relief? It was the feeling, “Okay, I can speak English.”

I recognize that this is exactly the same feeling a francophone has outside Quebec. It's the same. I don't think focusing on whether it's different here or different there.... We could focus on what's different, but maybe it's better to focus on what's the same. The experience for a linguistic minority is the same no matter where you are.

I was guilty. It was an injustice.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It's the first time we've heard something about this.

Many of the people the committee hears from are francophones in the same boat. We don't often hear from anglophones in Quebec who are dealing with the same thing as francophones outside Quebec. Today is the first time I am hearing about this, so I thank you for sharing that with us.

You said something else quite compelling. You said that, even if every judge were bilingual, it would not matter because the court administration system supporting the judge was not necessarily bilingual. We do, indeed, want every judge to be bilingual; everyone is in favour of virtue, after all. It is not all that helpful, however, to have a bilingual judge when the entire court administration system surrounding the judge is not bilingual. Everyone involved in the court administration system would need to become functionally bilingual for the approach to work.

Does that make sense to you?

[Stephen Thompson]

Yes, ma'am.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Ms. Boucher.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your presentations, which I found quite insightful. You gave very specific examples, and I must admit I quite appreciated that.

You said earlier that people expect those who are bilingual to speak the language of the majority. That's something I've often noticed in the Acadie region. Given that we, Acadians, speak both languages, the expectation is that we don't need to be served in French. The reality is that we do need French-language services, and we are entitled to ask for them. That is our right.

I also appreciated what you said about interpretation. Personally, I would quite enjoy arguing my case and interpreting what was said; honestly, it would be easier for me. I say that with tongue in cheek.

The point I want to make is the cultural influence languages have in society. That is what worries me. What I mean is that, if an argument or judgment is not translated into the other language, it diminishes the cultural influence of that language in society, in my view, and that worries me a lot.

Could you elaborate on that?

[Michael Bergman]

Is the question for both of us, or just one of us?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It's up to you who. If both of you answer, it will take too long.

[Stephen Thompson]

I'll be very brief and then I'll turn it over to Michael.

Something else that the committee has been studying, and I think you're going about it not in a direct way but in a way, is the definitions, and what it means to receive services from the federal government in an official language.

One of the things you are tackling and you will tackle certainly next year when the new Treasury Board regulations get to committee is the impact of technology. People will say that if you're an anglophone on the lower north shore and you're receiving service in English from Vancouver, then you're getting service in English. This is great. Skype, it's technology. Everybody is being served in their official languages. It's fantastic, right? No, because the person you're talking to in Vancouver speaks your language but has no idea what it's like to live on the lower north shore in Quebec, absolutely none.

What does equal service mean? It doesn't just mean a service in your language; it means you're talking to somebody who understands where you're from. Maybe your kids play baseball together, or maybe not, but at least you have a common reference to talk to each other. You're communicating not just verbally but at a much higher level.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It's not a translation.

[Stephen Thompson]

Exactly.

The cultural aspect of translation of services is not only about part IV. Now it becomes also about part VI, about talking not to somebody who just speaks French, but talking to a francophone, talking not to somebody who just speaks English, but talking to an anglophone.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Go ahead, Michael.

[Michael Bergman]

I've been a lawyer in Quebec for 40 years. No, I'm not old. I've been a lawyer in Ontario for 37 years. Maybe that made me old. Every few months a client comes to see me who says, “Mr. Bergman, I need to sue the Government of Quebec” or “I need to sue a city in Quebec” or “I need to sue a government agency in Quebec. I'd like to hire you because I've heard that you have an excellent reputation.” That's a bit of marketing, by the way. “But I'm very concerned that because I'm going to litigate with a French institution, I'd be better off with a French lawyer, because maybe the judge or the government or the other lawyers or the system or the fonctionnaires or the greffier will hold it against me that I, an anglophone, have hired an anglophone lawyer.”

This is the reality on the ground. To this client, this type of guy, I always say, “You're wrong. That is incorrect. It doesn't matter whether I am an anglophone, a francophone, a Martian. It doesn't matter. I'm a lawyer.” But people perceive their environment in that sense. I'm sure that's a common experience throughout this country, whether it be in English or French.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

I'll go on to a quick question number two and then I'll pass it to my colleague.

For my second question, we know

that it's a right. Access to justice in a person's preferred language, whether English or French, is indeed a right.

In Quebec, are efforts made to educate people on that right, to make them aware that the services are available and accessible to them?

[Michael Bergman]

In terms of provincial government bodies, the answer is no, in my opinion. I would qualify those efforts as more on the feeble side. With respect to federal bodies, funding for that purpose is available and public servants are bilingual, but is there a genuine desire to participate in the culture of the minority community? The answer is no.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today and for bringing their perspectives.

[Michael Bergman]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

We will suspend for a few minutes while we set up the second panel and then we'll reconvene with the second round of witnesses.