Official Languages Committee on Feb. 28th, 2018

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good morning. My name is Sylvie Boucher and I am a Conservative MP from Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix. I was the parliamentary secretary for official languages and parliamentary secretary for status of women for four years in the former government. That said, I must tell you that our committee is working very hard on official languages and that it is non-partisan. I will leave it at that.

Today, I have learned a great deal from the previous witnesses and yourself, Mr. LeBlanc. We know that the province of British Columbia does not recognize its francophone minority. Regardless of our federal political affiliation, and even with the best intentions in the world, our investments under a federal-provincial agreement will not yield the desired result if the province does not recognize its francophone minority.

You have talked a lot about the funding or the resources you want to get. Unfortunately, education falls under the provinces. The federal government gives money to the provinces, but does not always know how it is spent.

Mr. LeBlanc, if you had to suggest to our committee one way to help you while keeping in mind that education is the responsibility of the provinces, what do you think would be the best recommendation we could have in our report?

[Gino LeBlanc]

You raise a very good point, a major problem that reveals your experience in this matter: the accountability of the provinces toward the amounts they receive from the federal government. I'm not prepared to say that the federal investments are yielding no return, but you are right to point out that it is difficult to track and obtain accounts of how the provinces spend the money they receive.

Mr. Lewis and Mrs. Tijman have been in British Columbia longer than me. I just arrived, but I would say that there is still a slight wind of change blowing. I would like to raise an optimistic point. Mr. Dix has been appointed the Minister Responsible for the Francophone Affairs Program in British Columbia. It's a portfolio that doesn't have a big budget, but it's a start. Mr. Fleming, the Minister of Education, shows a certain openness, which still needs work. So, a slight wind of change is blowing.

However, the federal investments do play a big role. I think you have to be tough when the federal government invests, and you have to be accountable.

I remember having this discussion with Mauril Bélanger at the time. He said the same thing, that it was important to keep your eye on the money. Where does the money go once it's in the provincial coffers? We must be able to trace it.

So this remains important, and I invite you to make it a criterion of bilateral agreements. I don't want to sound overly optimistic, but I would say that the winds of change are blowing in British Columbia. I will let my colleagues answer, but I find everything is timely. How will the $400 million announced in yesterday's budget be affected? It lacks concrete details. And how will we be able to ensure that the province will invest this money in the right programs once you have made your recommendations? I invite you to be rigorous about it.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I have another question, and it's for Mr. Witwicki this time.

I want to talk about your third recommendation that the teaching of the second official language, be it French and, where applicable, the aboriginal language of the region, should become mandatory and be protected by a constitutional guarantee, in a purpose of reconciliation.

Not being from here, but from Quebec, I would like to know how many aboriginal dialects there are in the regions of British Columbia. Is there one or several?

[Patrick Witwicki]

I can't answer for the entire province, but I know which languages are in our region. In Haida Gwaii, there is Haida. In Prince Rupert, there is Sm'algyax, the language of the Timshians, which is also spoken in Terrace. Do you say “dialect” in French?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes, that's right. You are very good, by the way.

[Patrick Witwicki]

In Kitimat, it's Haisla. In Hazelton, they speak Gitanmaax, which I already mentioned, then Wet'suwet'en in Smithers. So there are six.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes, that is indeed six.

[Patrick Witwicki]

[Inaudible].

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Here's where I'm going. This all looks great on paper. I'm speaking to you now as a politician, since we are the legislators. To be able to offer classes in the region's native language, how can this third official language be determined if there are several dialects? Do you understand what I mean?

[Patrick Witwicki]

Yes, yes, I understand.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I am very sincere in asking you this question. The wording of your recommendation would force us to reopen the Constitution, and I'm not sure that the members of the committee are so keen on it.

That said, I fully understand you. However, I invite you to put yourself in the legislator's shoes and imagine just how complicated implementing your recommendation, which doesn't just target British Columbia, would be if it was to apply to the entire country, where there are many aboriginal dialects. I would like to know how many of these dialects there are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Lewis could help us with this.

[Glyn Lewis]

There's only one thing I would add. I think it's a really interesting question. Patrick has lived this, because he lives in the community. He's right there. He has worked with a lot of these chiefs of these first nations communities. I remember when they closed the French immersion program on Haida Gwaii, as Patrick mentioned in his speech. It was a successful program. They had a fantastic teacher. It was actually a trilingual program, as I think Patrick mentioned. Patrick and I went to that school together in Haida Gwaii. An elder came into the classroom and taught the kids Haida. This was a French immersion program, so in fact these students were learning three languages, including Haida.

I thought that was a beautiful model of reconciliation where languages could flourish side by side, but as Patrick mentioned, there was political push-back from some of the leaders in the first nations community in seeing French as this colonial language. There was a resentment against French as being this colonial language. It was some of that political push-back that led to the decision to close this very successful French immersion program.

I'm not speaking as a representative of CPF now. I'm speaking as a west coaster who believes in our two official languages. Personally, I think we could have shown more, in terms of reconciliation and support, that when it comes to what we do value and cherish, this isn't just about our language. We also value and cherish your language and your culture. I think it's those overtures that Patrick is talking about. I'm not trying to speak for him, but I think that's what he's trying to say. How can we show that we're not just advocating and representing ourselves but we're also recognizing and wanting to support your language and culture too?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Dan Vandal.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Please introduce yourself.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

My name is Daniel Vandal, and I represent the riding of Saint-Boniface—Saint-Vidal in Winnipeg. This is my first term as a federal member of Parliament.

Mr. Witwicki, would you like two minutes to answer Mrs. Boucher's question?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It was a good question.

[Patrick Witwicki]

It was a very good question.

I used the example of Hazelton, where the three languages are used. It's important because in the three small communities of Hazelton, South Hazelton and New Hazelton, the people have the support of the Gitxsan nation. The three languages are taught in school, as is the case in Haida Gwaii. Just before Christmas, there was a show where the children sang a Christmas song in English, French and Gitxsanimaax. Since I wasn't there, I can't tell you what song it was.

In some communities, even in Prince Rupert where French immersion is supported by the school boards, students between grades five and eight who are not in French immersion must choose core French or Sm'algyax, but they can't learn both. We feel that if the school board, either in Prince Rupert or Haida Gwaii, decided to introduce a rule that the three languages—French, Haida and English—must be taught, even the people who wouldn't want that would be required to respect this rule. We have seen where it works and where it doesn't, as Mr. Lewis said. That's our reality in the northwest.

In the process of reconciliation, Indigenous peoples want to protect their language, and this is very important. At the same time, in Haida Gwaii, the Haida are placing their children in a French immersion program. Yes, we want to protect our languages, but we also want the students to have the opportunity to learn French, because they will have many more job opportunities once they graduate than if they spoke only one language.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Mr. Witwicki, I have another question for your, and I don't have much time.

First, I must say that I find this subject fascinating. You said that, if they had the choice, the school boards would prefer not to offer an immersion program, and that stood out for me.

Can you explain the role of the provinces, the school boards and the municipalities in the administration of education in British Columbia?

[Patrick Witwicki]

Do I have to answer in five minutes?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

You can try.

[Patrick Witwicki]

There are four school boards in our region, and each one is different. The school board in Prince Rupert supports the French program. It works, and everyone is happy.

The Coast Mountains school board, which includes Terrace, Hazelton and Kitimat views this program negatively. I'll say it in English:

that we have this program because we have to, or some parents will be upset.

The people on the school boards of these places and the Smithers school board have the perception that they don't have the choice. As for the teachers—

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

I have a more specific question for you.

Can school boards determine the percentage of tax paid by the citizens for education? In Manitoba, citizens determine this percentage, and 50% goes to education. Is it the same thing here?

[Patrick Witwicki]

I think it's different here. I don't know if anyone else can answer this.