Official Languages Committee on Feb. 28th, 2018

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

Okay.

Mr. Lewis, Mr. Witwicki, if I understand correctly, you are not francophone. Could you tell me where the French language has taken you?

Did you naturally hang out in certain places, such as community centres?

How have you experienced your personal francophonie, your “francofolie” outside school?

Do you want to answer that, Mrs. Tijman?

[Diane Tijman]

I'm from Vancouver. My parents didn't speak French, but my mother loved French, and I learned French.

I'm a member of a choir in Maillardville. Our choir is directed in French. We sing in French and other languages. They're absolutely crucial—activities beyond three o'clock—for teachers or for young people, to maintain your language. I also travel. I make a point of going places where they speak French.

I have children who've graduated from the program. How can they maintain their language beyond age 18? They have to have some experiences. The Explore and Odyssey programs are examples. The immersion weekends offered through the universities are wonderful opportunities, as well as Alliance Française. I went to the galette des rois, a little party at the Centre francophone in Vancouver. There are activities.

I guess what's missing is that some people don't know where to go. We are lucky in the Lower Mainland that we live close enough, but for people in the north, it's harder to find the activities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

You have to know that René is a French singer, also.

Now we move to the next speaker. Mr. Samson, the floor is yours.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here today.

My name is Darrell Samson. I am the only elected Acadian in Nova Scotia—a title of which I am proud—though I have a colleague from New Brunswick.

Before I was elected, I was the executive director of the French-language school board in Nova Scotia for 11 years. Before the French-language school board was established, I worked for the English-language school board, where I was responsible for immersion and core French. At the time, there were still no French schools. We managed to establish a strategy that worked very well. However, it may not correspond to your situation; it may not be how things work for you. You said that 80% of the teachers are not comfortable with the French language. That was not the problem for us. Our problem was that those teaching core French felt that they had less support and greater teaching challenges to deal with than immersion teachers.

The union didn't like me because, to solve the problem, I gently forced teachers who could to teach both languages. Immersion teachers were required to teach two core French courses and core French teachers were required to teach two immersion courses. This completely changed the teaching, because for the first time it wasn't just the students who were seen as the elite, but the teachers, too. Core French teachers quickly learned how to teach, because it's easier to teach in immersion. That was just an aside.

Mr. Lewis, I have very good news to announce. I haven't checked with my colleagues, but I'll still share the good news. In fact, you have the right to enrol your future children in French school. You won't have to put their names on the waiting list for immersion. You are from a French-speaking family; your mother was francophone, if I'm not mistaken. However, that doesn't change anything because your sister or brother attended French school. If a child is a rights-holder, the whole family becomes rights-holders too. For the next 100 years, all children will be included in the definition of rights-holder.

Mr. LeBlanc...

[Glyn Lewis]

I would like to respond to Mr. Samson.

I'm lucky

My mother was a French teacher, and my sister took a French-language program. However, I have friends whose mothers didn't speak French, but they still went through a French immersion program. In British Columbia, there is another category made up of kids who went through the French immersion program, even though no one in their families was francophone.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

My solution was good only for you, for the moment. We could talk about it later.

Mr. LeBlanc, I appreciated your intervention. Last year, I visited the Simon Fraser University campus. I even gave a ten-minute presentation to students of a program offered to young people in the community and related to learning French. I was very impressed by the Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs. I am thinking mainly of the university senate, where the problem is often to create new programs.

Tell us about that. Earlier, you mentioned that there was funding in that regard.

[Gino LeBlanc]

We become masters in curriculum development to avoid university senates. Your remark is relevant.

I'll take a concrete example: criminology courses in French. Simon Fraser University has a criminology program in English. We add the letters "fr" to existing courses, but we still need to find teachers who can give these courses in French. I have to recruit professors in Acadia, Laval or Saint-Boniface. In short, to facilitate the development of new programs, we are Frenchifying existing English programs. This way, we don't have to go back to the senate. Otherwise, it would take years.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's a very good strategy. I know that several other places do this, because I know a little bit about post-secondary education.

David Brennick, who has already been the national president of Canadian Parents for French, is extremely effective. I don't know if you know him. He's from Nova Scotia.

You gave some explanations about core French. In Nova Scotia, there is an integrated program, that is, a second subject course is offered, for example mathematics or social studies. Is there something similar here to promote learning French through a core French program?

[Diane Tijman]

I was a core French teacher for 20 years.

Core French is one course. We call it the drip-feed method; it's a little bit and that's why it's so slow and eventually so unsuccessful. I'm a product of that system. I came through core French, though Vancouver, but it was through many years of studying, cultural experiences, and living elsewhere.... As far as core French and your question go, no, it's one course within the program.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That could be one strategy that you could try to integrate to convince government...they're sitting around us all the time....

You spoke about a continuum.

I'm really interested in the continuum. You raised a very important point by saying that section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is silent with respect to the teaching or learning of French for children under the age of 5 and for people 18 years and older. This has always been a big problem. Even we couldn't teach French to preschoolers or post-secondary students.

Now, the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones and several other national organizations are highlighting the importance of this issue. Even our committee made recommendations to that effect.

I see that my time is up. Thank you very much for your presentation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Généreux, it's your turn.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Good morning, everyone. I want to thank you very much for being here.

Mrs. Dalton, I like you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Do you want to start by introducing yourself?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Excuse me.

My name is Bernard Généreux, and I am the member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, a riding in Quebec along the St. Lawrence River.

Mrs. Dalton, I like you very much. You get straight to the point. In fact, all francophone associations in British Columbia should send you to see the Minister of La Francophonie or the Minister Responsible for Francophone Affairs to explain to her how British Columbia should act on francophone affairs.

[Danielle Dalton]

Any time.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. LeBlanc, I don't want to get into politics, but you said that the delay had accumulated over 10 years because of the lack of investment or the reorganization of the investment. I know that the government of the day, of which I was a part, made difficult decisions to return to balanced budgets, which it believed to be justified and justifiable. Francophone communities across Canada and many scientific organizations and others have suffered the consequences for it.

All morning, I have been hearing that, despite everything, the francophone network is developing in British Columbia and Canada, and that there is an absolutely spectacular desire on the part of the entire francophone community outside Quebec to take its true place and put everything in order to ensure its development.

You said from the outset that money didn't solve everything and that a real will was needed. Earlier, Mrs. Boucher said that the federal government was giving money to the provinces and that, despite all the agreements, the provinces are not always doing what they should or what is planned that they do. We must absolutely mention it in our findings. The federal government must ensure that there is accountability and that the money is spent for the purpose intended. Despite all the goodwill of the federal government, there are always two parties to an agreement and two sides to every coin. Unfortunately, I'm noticing today that the other party isn't doing its job. This is unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

I want to give all the witnesses the opportunity to speak to this, but before that I want to congratulate you, Mr. Hubert. Your organization doesn't receive any subsidies, but still offers French classes to hundreds of individuals. Again, it's not a question of money, but of will. Money helps a lot, but there has to be a will. I congratulate you, and I'm really amazed to see all you do and all the energy you put into it, as do the other groups that were here this morning. All of this is of great interest to me.

[Glyn Lewis]

I'll just speak really quickly.

Thank you for mentioning that. This question of accountability is really interesting.

In B.C. there is about $10 million that comes from the federal government every year for French second language education. That is $10 million, roughly, off the top of my head.

Roughly, about $8 million of that goes to school districts that provide French immersion and core French, as Diane mentioned earlier, based on how many students they have in each. So 80% of the federal French funding that comes to our province for French second language education goes to school districts. That's where the level of accountability really needs to be with respect to how these monies are being used.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Yes, but it's the provincial level that should take care of that, not the federal level. Well, it should be both, actually.

[Glyn Lewis]

Well, here is the thing. We meet with the provincial government often and we say, “Here are the things we're looking for”, and some things require funding and some things don't require funding. This does not require funding. Accountability and transparency in the reporting does not require additional funding. It just means that they have to do a little bit more work to show us how they're spending the money. They'll push back. The school districts don't want to do that extra reporting, and we continually ask them to do it, and all those kinds of things.

Where I think there is more of a role for the federal government is to require more transparency and accountability right down to the school district level, because it's the money of the federal government; so that's where I think the lever of power is to ask for that information.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I want to take this opportunity to say that Ms. Major is here; she is representing the Department of Canadian Heritage. I hope that these messages will be heard.

Go ahead, Mr. Witwicki.

[Patrick Witwicki]

I would like to add something. It's the same thing about school boards. A few years ago in Smithers, the principal of the immersion school had to decide how to use the money that he had received for education in French. Yet when we asked the school board what he had done with the money, no one had an answer.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Finally, if I may, I would like to ask you if there is a grouping of all the francophone associations in British Columbia, who represents you when it comes to going directly to the government?

Mr. LeBlanc, perhaps you would like to answer.

[Gino LeBlanc]

There is the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique, whose representatives may have been here this morning.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Does it speak for all the francophone organizations?

[Gino LeBlanc]

It mobilizes many organizations, including ours, around certain issues. So there are meetings of presidents, and observers can attend. We have a summit twice a year. Yes, it's structured.

You talked about provincial issues, and British Columbia is the only province in Canada that does not have a French-language service policy. I don't know if you want to include that in your report. Alberta has just adopted a policy on this, so there is an exception, and it is our province. Certainly it would help us if the province had… As I said, for the first time ever, we have a Minister Responsible for Francophone Affairs, Mr. Dix.