Official Languages Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Antoine Désilets, Executive Director, Société Santé en français]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the members of the committee. It is a genuine pleasure to be here today.

First, I would like to acknowledge that the land on which the Société Santé en français sits is part of the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

Before proposing two amendments to Bill C‑13 regarding the health of the francophone and Acadian minority communities, I would first like to provide you with some figures on access to health services in French in Canada. These figures date back to 2020 and come from a survey that the Léger organization conducted for Health Canada. They reveal how official language communities perceive access to health services in French.

The first finding is that access to health services in French still faces challenges. One-third of survey respondents reported that they had received health services entirely in French, another third that they had received partial access, and the remaining third that they had received no services in French.

The second finding was that progress had been made in providing access to services but that there had also been some backsliding. Some 19% of survey respondents said they had seen improvements in the previous 10 years, while 42% had seen no improvement, and 16% reported that the quality of access had declined. The remaining 23% had no opinion on the matter.

Lastly, the survey reveals that the main barriers to access to health services in French stem from a lack of human resources, fear of long waiting times in hospitals, a lack of information available in French and concerns about receiving poor-quality services.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Désilets, but I'm being told to ask you to speak more slowly for the interpreters.

[Antoine Désilets]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll try to speak more slowly. I don't often make presentations to committees.

Allow me to say a few words about the Société Santé en français.

We are a national organization supported by Health Canada. We celebrated our 20th anniversary this year. We are a network of networks, essentially as a result of the administration of health services. Since we need to have bases in all provinces and territories, we support 16 independent French-language health organizations across Canada. Those 16 members are directly connected to their health systems and to a group of essential partners: governments, health institutions, health professionals, training institutions and the communities themselves. Our job is to make known the needs of francophones and the contributions that these health partners can make. We support the development of capacity to serve francophones in order to transform programs and public health policies in a sustainable manner.

As you will have understood, we receive funding from the federal government for the purpose of offering our support. We cannot intervene directly in the delivery of services. Consequently, we engage in support work to foster systems and capacity development, but it's a David and Goliath struggle.

The federal and provincial governments spent a total of $300 billion on health in 2021. Keep that figure in mind. However, federal government support for the official language communities amounts to $40 million a year. That money is earmarked for 13 separate English and French health systems for professional training and capacity development. Essentially, one penny for every $100 spent in Canada every year is allocated to official language communities. We really are a tiny canoe competing with big ocean liners.

All of which brings me to two recommendations respecting Bill C‑13.

I want to start by noting that we have been a member of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada since December 2021 and that we support all the proposals that the FCFA has made regarding, for example, management of this issue by a central agency. However, the two proposals I am presenting today are more specifically related to health.

Our first recommendation is that authority to subject the federal government's spending power to official-language-related conditions in sectors essential to the vitality of the official language minority communities named in part VII be reaffirmed in the act.

What kinds of conditions are we talking about? I am suggesting two. First, they may be conditions respecting the collection of data on the health status of official language minority communities. We still don't have a clear picture of the health status of French-speaking official language minority communities relative to the majority population. The data are collected by system or by institution and are not standardized nationally. However, it seems essential that we have a clear idea of the situation in order to provide official languages support programs. A second type of condition would be that the delivery of services in both official languages be reflected in the government's priorities as set forth in its bilateral agreements for both mental health and long-term care.

Our second recommendation is that it be clearly stated in the act that health is divided into two parts: health services and public health. Allow me to explain the distinction. By health services, I mean the public system, health professionals, hospitals and everything falling under provincial jurisdiction. By public health, I mean the health status of populations, healthy habits, prevention, vaccination and health promotion. This is a field in which the federal government makes a direct contribution because it is a shared responsibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Désilets. You will be able to discuss this at greater length as questions are put to you.

We will begin the first round of questions.

I give the floor to the first vice-chair of our committee, Joël Godin, for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for taking part in this exercise today. As I told the previous panel, you are helping us to be better.

My question is for both organizations.

In your opening statements, you gave us an overview of the situation, and we all feel the same: an enormous amount of work must be done to improve the situation of the French language, one of the two official languages in Canada. Now, how can we do that?

We are here today to improve Bill C‑13, the purpose of which is to modernize the Official Languages Act. My question will be very specific. How can we establish tools, statutory provisions, that would enable action to be taken in the provinces and territories? How can we improve the bill by considering language clauses, for example? What do you think would be the best amendment to make language clauses effective?

I'll ask Mr. Laberge to answer first, and then it will be Mr. Désilets' turn.

[Alain Laberge]

Thank you very much for that very relevant question, Mr. Godin.

At the Franco-Manitoban School Division, we believe that the federal government can play a leading role in establishing the foundation of bilingualism.

I cheated a little: I listened to the first panel of witnesses earlier.

We think the essential tools would be designed to give newcomers access to francization courses in both rural and urban areas. These people have to be supported. We often take in people from Africa, Europe and Asia—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me, Mr. Laberge. I'm going to stop you right away.

My question is very specific: what do you think would be the best language clauses that we could include in Bill C‑13 to achieve a specific result?

[Alain Laberge]

As we said, one of the language clauses should be designed to foster a progression toward the equality of status and use of English and French in Canadian society. Until we have achieved that equality, the sole purpose of the schools will be to teach a language that will never be used in society, and we will turn regions outside Quebec into places where students learn an obsolete French language that will serve absolutely no purpose.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Laberge.

What do you think, Mr. Désilets?

[Antoine Désilets]

This bill mentions respect for provincial jurisdictions under the Constitution of Canada. We could also add recognition of the right to subject the federal government's spending power to conditions.

In my presentation, I mentioned two specific factors, including the collection of compelling data. Every year, the government transfers $45 billion to the provinces. That amount will probably increase over the next few years. I think we have a right to ask the federal government for something in return, such as data specifically concerning the use of official languages in health services and the service levels offered by the programs. That would help establish a complete picture of the situation. If federal health transfers exacerbate unfair situations between francophones and members of the majority population, I think we're failing to meet the act's objective.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Désilets.

I'm going to test an amendment respecting language clauses that I've considered and intend to move.

You have to understand that there are areas of provincial and territorial jurisdiction and areas of federal jurisdiction. I believe that Mr. Désilets deals with that situation every day.

Let's say we introduced an amendment to Bill C‑13 respecting language clauses in which we stated that bilateral agreements would be reached between the federal government and the provinces and territories regarding every infrastructure investment but that additional funding would be allocated to provinces and territories wishing to introduce specific measures for minorities. Would that be realistic and effective?

I'll let you answer, Mr. Laberge.

[Alain Laberge]

You're absolutely right. I love that proposal.

There would nevertheless have to be transparency when money was transferred to the provinces. As you noted, there are two systems. Education is an area of provincial jurisdiction. We'd like to know whether that money would be paid directly to us so we could move matters forward in such a way that they aren't blocked by the province. For example, we could build new schools, offer more transportation and hire more teachers in rural areas. We could have the same thing.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You're right. I think that there's an obligation of result and that it should be indicated in the language clause.

Mr. Désilets, I'd like to hear you comment on my language clauses proposal.

[Antoine Désilets]

You mentioned the idea of allocating funding to provinces and territories prepared to take specific action. I think that would be a good amendment. However, it can't be denied that the federal government also has to play a leadership role. Not all Canadian provinces will get involved in official language issues. It will have to keep putting very clear expectations and objectives on the table and support the francophone community organizations on the ground that are offering tools and are keen.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Désilets.

I would've liked to ask you more questions, but the chair is signalling to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 15 seconds left.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Actually, if you have any more amendment ideas or wording to suggest to reinforce the bill and language clauses but don't have the time to tell us about them during the meeting, I would like you to send them to us in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

I now give the floor to Patricia Lattanzio for six minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for taking the time to join us today to help us study Bill C‑13.

My first question is for Mr. Laberge.

I'm very pleased that you're with us today and that the school sector is represented. I was a commissioner on the largest anglophone school board in Quebec. So I'm very pleased to have you with us because you may be able to give us some ideas about how to preserve the schools. We're talking about a provincial jurisdiction here, but, as you said in your speech, we're talking about communities, not schools. It's a question of inclusion, culture and, actually, identity.

I'd like to go a little further with a view to helping you. Apart from increasing the number of French teachers in our schools, are there any other measures or other investments that could enhance the presence and maintenance of French in Manitoba.

[Alain Laberge]

I remember you, Ms. Lattanzio. I was executive director of the Sorel-Tracy school board in another life, and I remember you very clearly.

How would it be possible to go further? You mentioned the teachers, and that's one of the aspects. However, when we talk about minority education, we often seem to forget that the enormous costs are necessary simply to have a school in our community, whether those costs are for books, software or transportation. When students travel 75 to 90 minutes by bus morning and evening, they really have to be devoted to the cause of education in French.

Since we have few schools, a virtually inadequate number of schools, we need more real estate to welcome our students. We also have to give parents a chance to choose their children's schools. Many parents in Flin Flon and Thompson are rights holders who, however, have lost their rights. We must ensure that section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is considered in its entirety.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

As you know, we've just received the results of the 2021 census. It's a new census outlining the data that were collected more specifically on rights holders. Could you tell us more about the statistical results based on the data that was collected?

[Alain Laberge]

Actually, the first statistics revealed didn't include that. The statistics including what we call rights holders are supposed to be released in November. The census was expanded to allow families to report that they have two mother tongues, which is fantastic. However, I haven't received those figures yet.

From the last data we received in August and September, we can see that the number of students wishing to enrol in French-language instruction programs rose substantially. That was noted by Mr. Parent, who was on the first witness panel. The problem is that, here in Manitoba, even if you want to enrol in an immersion program—I know I'm talking to the competition here, but I'll be brave—no school outside Winnipeg offers one. So we're depriving ourselves of part of the population, which will never be able to speak French because we don't even give them the opportunity to attend those schools.

The new census and the proposed amendments to section 23 of the Charter will help us expand that pool. It must be understood that we still have to fight with the departments to substantiate our needs. Anglophones in Transcona need only tell me that the population has grown and they want a new school, and it will be accepted. If I say that the francophone population of Trendscona has grown, I'll be asked how many more families that represents. However, I don't have the data I need to put up a fight before the department. So those figures will be essential.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Désilets.

Earlier you talked about a survey that had been conducted on health. How many people were surveyed in order to generate that data? When was the survey conducted? Was it before, during or after the pandemic?

[Antoine Désilets]

Thank you for that question.

As regards methodology, I don't have the number of respondents with me. The survey was conducted by the Léger firm, which is well known in the field.

The study was released in early 2020, and the data was gathered before the pandemic. We have no clear idea of the impact of the pandemic. However, the Société Santé en français estimates that the impact of the pandemic, which affected the general population, was even greater in the minority official language communities as a result of the challenges associated with access to health services.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Do you think that all communications should be conducted in both official languages, whether or not they're urgent?