Official Languages Committee on March 31st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Newman.

Perhaps other witnesses would like to add something, but Mr. Serré also wanted to say something.

Go ahead, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank my colleague for proposing this amendment.

Mr. Newman tried to outline the separation of powers. As to defining roles, other amendments that will be considered later on, including amendments LIB‑27, LIB‑28 and LIB‑30, seek to clarify roles. That is precisely what Mr. Godin was talking about.

Ms. Boyer, can you explain what the impact would be if amendment CPC‑41 were adopted? Mr. Newman noted a few points. The Official Languages Act and the role of Treasury Board are involved, but the Commissioner of Official Languages, Parliament and the courts are also at issue. I think this is really important. We all have the same objective.

Ms. Boyer, in view of the machinery of government, can you explain these elements in terms of the role that Treasury Board can or cannot play?

[Julie Boyer]

Thank you very much for the question.

Under amendment CPC‑41, Treasury Board would be responsible for “federal programs for the implementation of this Act”, that is, the Official Languages Act, “including the government-wide strategy on official languages”. I would like to point out that, earlier in this study, the Standing Committee on Official Languages approved a provision of the bill that gives this role to the Department of Canadian Heritage. Adopting this amendment would therefore create inconsistency.

This amendment also includes the following wording: “In carrying out its responsibilities under subsection (1), the Treasury Board may recommend regulations to the Governor in Council to give effect to this Act.” Where it says “of this Act” without mentioning its parts, that implies that the regulatory measures could apply to all parts of the act. That could be problematic in view of the separation of powers that is a feature of our parliamentary system.

If it applied to parts I and II of the act, that would mean that Treasury Board could tell parliamentarians what to do. As a rule, the public service never tells parliamentarians what to do.

Further, if it applied to part III, Treasury Board could tell the courts what to do. That would be problematic.

Finally, if it applied to part IX, which defines the role of the Commissioner of Official Languages, that would mean that Treasury Board could make regulations applicable to an independent officer of Parliament.

So this amendment would apply very broadly. I don't know if parliamentarians want to be told what to do by Treasury Board, but that could happen if this amendment were adopted.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Boyer.

I think that answers Mr. Serré's question.

Mr. Godin, would you like to say something else?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I have two points, actually.

My first is directed to you, Mr. Newman. You said this could be discussed at the Council of Ministers, but when drafting a bill, it is essential to minimize possible interpretations and ensure that the individuals' intention is reflected. Leaving it to the discretion of the Council of Ministers is exactly what we don't want. That is what we did in the past and the Council of Ministers has not really done its job over the past 52 years. That is precisely what created the current official languages situation and led us to conduct the present study.

Ms. Boyer, I understand what you said and it is legitimate. We are the legislator, not specialists in the application of laws.

If I understand correctly, what is being proposed is interesting, but the Commissioner of Official Languages, Parliament and the courts would have to be excluded for it to be acceptable, applicable and more effective, is that correct?

[Julie Boyer]

Yes, the committee may choose the parts of the Official Languages Act in respect of which Treasury Board may make regulations.

I should note however that part of Treasury Board's mandate is relevant in this regard. I will let my colleagues from Treasury Board speak to this.

[Karim Adam, Director, Oversight and Compliance, Official Languages Centre of Excellence, People and Culture, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Very well, thank you.

I would note first that my colleague Ms. Boyer clearly identified the impact of expanding powers. At Treasury Board, we are primarily responsible for parts IV, V and VI of the Official Languages Act.

I wish to clarify something about how this amendment would expand Treasury Board's powers. In practical terms, in addition to having the power to recommend regulations, develop policies and directives, and monitor how federal institutions live up to their obligations, Treasury Board would be responsible for evaluating the effectiveness of programs for the implementation of the act. Ultimately, that would mean that Treasury Board would be responsible for establishing policies and directives, but also for monitoring compliance with them.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Adam, you said that Treasury Board is currently responsible for parts IV, V, and VI of the Official Languages Act. As parliamentarians, though, can we not add to Treasury Board's duties and responsibilities for other parts as well?

[Karim Adam]

Bill C‑13 does in fact include additional duties relating to part VII, with regard to linguistic clauses and positive measures, among other things.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Adam, if the committee adopts amendments to the bill in order to add to Treasury Board's responsibilities under the new Official Languages Act, will Treasury Board exercise them?

The way you describe Treasury Board's responsibilities suggests that your actions are limited to parts IV, V and VI, and nothing further. Now you are saying that, under the bill, your responsibilities would pertain partially to part VII.

Here is what I would like to know: if the committee decides to adopt a bill that gives Treasury Board broader powers, will it exercise those powers?

[Karim Adam]

At the end of the day, we will do as the committee decides.

[Julie Boyer]

I should point out that everything must be consistent with Treasury Board's enabling statute.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Are there any other questions?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I appeal to my colleagues to adopt this amendment, given the scope of action it affords.

I am open to any subamendments to exclude the Commissioner of Official Languages and parliamentarians from its application. Ms. Boyer's point is valid. In any case, I think the amendment is important on the whole.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

It seems there are no further comments, so we will now vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That brings us to amendment LIB‑27.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Amendment LIB‑27 is quite simple. I will read it first and then we can proceed.

I propose that Bill C‑13, in Clause 25, be amended by replacing lines 26 and 27 on page 16 with the following:

implementation of Parts IV, V and VI, subsection 41(5) and paragraph 41(7)(a.1) in all federal institutions

This is simply to consider the obligations.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

Before proceeding with comments, I would note that if amendment LIB‑27 is adopted, amendment NDP‑11 cannot be proposed owing to a line conflict.

Are there any comments on amendment LIB‑27?

You have the floor, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

For my part, Mr. Chair, I am open to what my colleague just proposed. The scope is not as broad as what was proposed in amendment CPC‑41, but it does broaden the responsibilities nonetheless.

I would like to propose a subamendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, your subamendment is circulating. I just received it. We will suspend to take the time to consider it.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are back in session.

We are now at subamendment to LIB‑27 introduced by Mr. Godin.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, as luck would have it, I was able to have a discussion with the legislative clerks. I think my subamendment is in order, and I hope the committee members will be receptive.

I will be very transparent and explain what I am trying to do. Amendment CPC‑41 did not pass. I want to be a good sport. I'm trying to find common ground to strengthen the act and give the departments tools so they can get the best results possible, based on the act—not the departments. They need to have the tools to step in, act and take the necessary measures.

I move that amendment LIB‑27 to clause 25, page 16 of Bill C‑13, be amended by replacing the words “, subsection 41(5) and paragraph 41(7)(a.1)” with the following:

and VII, except sections 43 and 44.1,

I don't want to be told that this was written for the Minister of Canadian Heritage or the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Section 43 is for the former, while section 44.1 is for the latter.

I think we have a great opportunity to show that we are able to work together. Initially, the strongest amendment was introduced, which was amendment CPC‑47. The Liberals introduced LIB‑27, which is not as strong as CPC‑47, but stronger than the current act. I, for one, want to strengthen amendment LIB‑27 by including all of part VII.

I can't take my argument any further. I think it makes sense. I trust my colleagues will support this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, you referred to amendment CPC‑47, but it is amendment CPC‑41.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I see that you are keeping up well.