Official Languages Committee on Sept. 25th, 2023

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Forest, would you like to add anything?

[Mariève Forest]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to remind you that we rely a lot on immigration to address the labour shortage. However, proportionally speaking, right now, we're still welcoming a lot of professionals who speak English. As a result, the more Canadian demographics rely on immigration and the more anglophone immigrants we welcome, the less likely it will be for me as a francophone to run into someone who speaks French when I need health care or when I seek services in my municipality, for example. I'd therefore like to remind you that it's important that solutions to the labour shortage include significant francophone immigration thresholds.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Forest.

We're going to begin the second round. The first round will be five minutes.

Mrs. Goodridge, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you to all the witnesses for participating in our meeting today.

A special hello to Mrs. Saumure, whom I have known for a long time and who has held a number of roles.

I'd like to begin by addressing the shortage of francophone teachers, which I hear a lot about. Although there are many opportunities, the shortage is an impediment in a number of regions. Could you tell me your general perspective on the labour shortage?

[Valérie Morand]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Goodridge.

At the moment, the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones is working closely with its English-language counterpart, the Canadian School Boards Association, to better understand this shortage of teachers, both in the French as a first language education system and in immersion programs, so that we can get a 360‑degree view of the issue.

The AI-based project is funded by Canadian Heritage and aims to gather data from both English- and French-language school boards to really understand the issue and take action to help school boards, employees and employers address the teacher shortage. We're expecting a partial breakdown of the data this summer, and next spring we'll have a more detailed picture.

However, another major factor in this shortage is the teacher training continuum. Universities have a role to play in recruiting students who choose to enrol in these teachers' colleges. The school boards also have their own role to play in welcoming these new teachers and making sure they retain them. We must nevertheless recognize that one in five teachers ends up leaving the profession because of the educational requirements. This data will certainly help us put measures in place to counteract the shortage of teachers, but teaching needs to be valued, and we need to foster working conditions that will make teachers want to stay on in their chosen profession.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you very much.

Cyrille Simard, I know that when people attend by video conference, we sometimes forget that they are here, but I haven't forgotten you.

You talked a lot about the francophone minority situation in Atlantic Canada. Can you give us some suggestions for improving francophone immigration in a minority context in the Atlantic Canada region?

[Cyrille Simard]

Thank you.

Obviously, as I emphasized in my remarks, my perspective is that of a professional and technical training institution, namely an institution that aims to address the labour needs and required skills for businesses and organizations on the ground. So I'm going to look at this through that lens.

I pointed out the significant growth we've seen in recent years. That said, despite the fact that many international students want to settle and work here, we have some challenges.

Upstream, our main challenge today is finding a way to more easily target the students who will enter our programs, because we offer 80 programs and 16 fields of study. It's really important that we know what percentage of people will get student visas, which presents another challenge. If we had that information up front, we could better plan our budgets and ensure that we place students in the right program. Some of our programs are facing low enrolment. If we don't know ahead of time what percentage we're going to get, it unfortunately becomes harder for us to fill those spots.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Simard and Mrs. Goodridge. That's all the time we have for now. You can come back to that later.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank all the members around the table who agreed to let me return to the committee on a permanent basis. Second, I want to wish my Ontario colleagues a happy Franco‑Ontarian Day, an extremely important day.

My questions are for the representatives of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, but before I ask them, I want to tell Ms. Forest that I really liked her comment that Canada is a model for immigration, but certainly not for francophone immigration. I thank her for raising that, because it's important that we reflect on it as elected officials.

Now, I want to congratulate the federation, but also the school boards it represents, for the great progress we've seen. You mentioned that there were 13,000 students and 73 additional schools. This shows that the needs have truly been there for several years. It's unfortunate that it took until the early nineties for the Supreme Court to confirm the right to manage admissions. This demonstrates that the work is getting done on the ground, but that we still have a long way to go.

I'd like to talk briefly about the official languages in education program, or OLEP. A new official languages action plan has just been released, and you would agree that it provides exceptional investments to support francophone communities outside Quebec. In 2015, the federal government invested a total of $2.2 billion in this area. Today, we're at $4.1 billion, almost double that. It's very important.

Can you very briefly describe OLEP? We know that funding is still not being distributed as fast as it should, despite government policy.

[Valérie Morand]

Yes, absolutely.

Now that the action plan for official languages has been announced with its education component, the official languages in education program, we have a one-year transition period so that the provinces and territories can reach bilateral agreements with the federal government. We were assured that there would be no service interruptions, that is to say French-language school boards would continue to receive funding, but they did not.

We're working very closely with Canadian Heritage to see how to remedy this situation, because the school boards, which are employers, were forced to lay off staff a month before the beginning of the school year. That's not what we'd prefer, given the shortage of teachers and staff. As a result, the boards have committed to running a budget deficit for the current year to retain staff, but that isn't an ideal situation.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

No, it doesn’t. Under any government, it’s always about the process, but I’m glad you pointed out that it’s important nonetheless.

In the new version of the Official Languages Act, a very important provision has been added so that Francophone school boards are consulted before real estate is disposed of, because we know that in British Columbia, among other places, you have to wait over 20 years for a piece of land to become available. How has this been received in your communities?

[Valérie Morand]

It’s been very well received. It’s a phenomenal gain. The difficulty currently is obtaining information from the Department of Public Works and Government Services in real time, but that’s more of a bureaucracy issue. Learning in real time when federal properties become available on the market at a preferential cost, before they are put on the market for the general public, is of fundamental importance in meeting the need to build new schools. You must understand that the cost of building a new school from scratch on a plot of land is enormous. Having access to existing infrastructure gives us a major head start.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I just want to come back to the issue of professional bodies, which you mentioned. The federal government has already emphasized the importance of working closely with provinces and professional associations in health and education, among other areas. It’s already on the list, and we want to follow up to determine the exact path we’re going to take to reach the goal, because it’s crucial. I’ve seen it myself, as general manager…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you for that comment, Mr. Samson.

The next round is for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Forest, perhaps you could complete your answer to the question I asked earlier. I was talking about the gap between the English language post-secondary education system in Quebec, which is overfunded, and the French language post-secondary education system outside Quebec, which is underfunded. You spoke about that.

Your study shows that 24.9% of university enrolments in Quebec study in English, and that spending by English-language universities accounts for 32% of total spending by Quebec universities. Can you tell us a little about how you arrived at these conclusions? What impact does this have on Francophone minorities outside Quebec, English in Quebec and Francophones in Quebec?

[Mariève Forest]

It’s as if it were easier to turn to English. That’s why we’re here, after all. From what I read last weekend, 40% of those enrolled in university in Montreal this year are studying in English. So the problem is far from being solved.

We can look at different data. If we focus on Francophone minority communities, the role of post-secondary institutions is crucial in cementing our interest and ability to live in French and pass French on to our children. Studies on the vitality of Francophone communities have shown that this dynamic is extremely important. Imagine the number of people who, at the age of 17, will be switching languages to English for their studies. We also see that Francophones are more likely to move to study, because they still want to try to study in French. They also have higher student debt than anglophones.

So there are all sorts of very technical dynamics that we can take into consideration. But basically, the important thing to remember about post-secondary education is that it seals our commitment to a language. Clearly, then, post-secondary institutions cannot be seen as superfluous. They’re just as important as primary and secondary schools, and the supply is nowhere near meeting potential demand.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Forest.

Ms. Ashton, you have two and half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Very well.

I’m going to continue on the subject of education, because that’s what we need to focus on, particularly in Western Canada, as I was saying a few moments ago.

The Action Plan for Official Languages 2023–2028 includes a Francophone immigration initiative with a goal of recruiting and retaining Francophone teachers from abroad. Do the witnesses have any comments on this initiative?

Once again, Ms. Morand, would you like to begin?

[Valérie Morand]

Certainly.

As far as recognition of professional skills is concerned, the idea of creating a table with the professional bodies for accelerated recognition of prior learning has been put forward. That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

I can point to another proposal. In the Canadian system, although the federal government plays a role in education, it falls, as you know, under provincial and territorial jurisdiction. We are already seeing a willingness on the part of some provinces to create more spots in faculties of education so that more students to enrol. So, at the end of their studies, mathematically, there should be more graduates and therefore new teachers available for French-language schools.

We also need to do more to promote the positions that are available. We’re hearing from our school boards, which are employers, that recruiting from abroad is an extremely cumbersome process, often with only modest results. It requires fairly robust human resources management services to support interested candidates in their efforts to have their professional skills recognized, and in their search for accommodation. Indeed, as you know, today’s employers don’t just give an employee a job, they also have to take care of settling them in. Given the housing crisis, we’re experiencing this very acutely in our school boards. So it creates a difficult situation for smaller school boards—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Ms. Morand. I apologize for cutting you off, but there are preexisting agreements between the political parties as to the time allotted for questions.

The next round is for five minutes.

Mr. Généreux, I believe you are sharing your time with Mr. Godin. I will therefore let you know when you’ve reached the halfway mark. You have two and half minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame Morand, you’ve been part of Destination Canada, having participated in many of its activities. What percentage of the countries targeted by Destination Canada are French-speaking, so‑called Francophone or, at the very least, Francophile, compared to the number of English-speaking countries?

[Valérie Morand]

Let’s just say that the formula set by the Canadian Embassy in France is as follows. Until recently, there were two-day fairs in Paris. People came to the fair, mostly from within France, but there were also people from out of town and from neighbouring countries. Then it was on to Belgium.

Belgium has now been ruled out. The new formula is two days in France and three days in Morocco. That’s because Canada has realized that the Maghreb countries, particularly Morocco, are really a prime source of Francophone immigration.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

So we all agree that we’re looking for candidates from French-speaking countries.

With all the information available on social media in 2023, I think people generally know that Canada is a bilingual country. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s quite easy to find out. So, if you want to know if it’s possible to study in French in Canada, it’s fairly simple to find this information, if you’re a true Francophone and you want to study here in French, which is actually possible anywhere in Canada.

When you say it requires robust human resource management teams, are you referring to people within Destination Canada who will promote Canada, like you and your colleagues, to attract people here? Are these the people you think should be at a higher level or have better skills to be able to attract people and tell them they can study in French anywhere in Canada?

[Valérie Morand]

I would add two nuances to your question.

First of all, I was mainly thinking of human resources management services within Canada that support the selected candidate. Interviews are often conducted virtually. Once the candidate has been chosen, made an offer and accepted it, there’s a whole process to support them and bring them to Canada. Some school boards will travel to these fairs, but not the majority: of the 29 school boards that make up the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, only 6 or 7 will go.

Secondly, in my experience, even if there’s a mistaken belief that information is easy to find, I often see a lack of understanding of the Canadian system. When people stop by the kiosk, the first question I ask them is whether they have determined where they will settle in their immigration plans. Some tell me they’re thinking of Ontario, the Northwest Territories or Manitoba. You understand that they have no idea of the distances between Canada’s various regions. If they’ve chosen to settle in one province and then decide to move, new steps must be taken, since Canada is a federation.

So they often need to be reminded to finalize their immigration plans properly. It’s to their own advantage. It will save them a significant amount of trouble and red tape. As you say, there’s information available online. In fact, we do a significant amount of website referencing, and when we do, we see very high traffic. Despite this, there’s still a lack of understanding of the Canadian system.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, you have a little less than a minute and a half of time left.