Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Veronis, you talked about having two immigration classes. Every day in my riding office, I hear people talk about extremely long waits for immigration files to be processed.

Do you think that creating those two systems would help solve the problem of these extremely long delays?

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

Yes. One of the reasons for simplifying the process is that it would facilitate access to support in preparing applications for those wishing to file them. At the same time, if the criteria are different, that could facilitate and expedite file assessment while avoiding problems. A simplified process could also be rigorous, competitive and all that, but it wouldn't be the kind of competition that we currently have in the context of express entry, for example.

Mr. Norman talked about educators who have no access to the expedited program, for example. So I think that would facilitate matters.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you very much.

I now turn the floor over to the father of Léo‑Xavier Drouin.

Go ahead, Mr. Drouin.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're very good at your job.

I'll go first to Mr. Normand, who comes from the beautiful community of Hawkesbury. I like to repeat that since it's our home town, for both of us, even though Mr. Normand is smarter than I am.

You mentioned the barriers to the professional associations and the limits that the provinces set on the number of new students who may be admitted to colleges and universities. Do you know whether your members have partnerships with universities in Africa, for example, to break down the barriers associated with credential recognition, among other things? We know there's a shortage of teachers in the French-language primary and secondary schools in Canada, for example.

Are the members of your association working on that?

[Martin Normand]

As an association, we don't do that type of work. In some instances, our members have mobility agreements with foreign institutions, and sometimes we can even delocalize certain curricula to facilitate upgrading. So that kind of work is done. We also do promotional and recruitment work at specialized fairs for certain disciplines.

In response to your question, I'd like to emphasize another point regarding credential recognition here. We've discussed national standards two or three times. The professional associations are under provincial jurisdiction. They will have to be at the table to consider the issue of credential recognition. Our institutions have tried to work in this area to provide supplementary training and to reserve spaces for foreign students in certain programs, for example. However, it's the business of the professional associations, which fall under the jurisdiction of the provinces, to manage that issue.

I would add that not all the professional associations are sensitive to the language issue. So it's not because credential recognition work is done for the majority that it necessarily works for francophones seeking to have their credentials recognized. They may have to obtain translations of degrees and curricula in countries where English is not even a working language. Consequently, it may be very hard to complete this process, even where one has been established.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Francophones work in a minority setting even at the international level. Is it up to us to break down those barriers? We're talking about labour mobility and the importance of establishing partnerships among francophone countries, even though, at times, it may be frustrating to deal with the various orders of government and the provinces in Canada. Do you think it's up to us to move forward and not wait?

We are francophones working in an anglophone majority setting. With regard to the professional associations, is it up to us to take action to break down those barriers, since we're the ones who ultimately pay the price? There are labour shortages in early childhood, primary education and medicine. There are shortages everywhere. The impact of those shortages is significant, especially for our minority language communities across Canada, but they even exist in Quebec today.

[Martin Normand]

Even though the professional associations are under the jurisdiction of the provinces, I believe that the federal government can be a leader on an issue such as this. It can challenge the provinces on the issue of credential recognition. It can ensure that the language issue is taken into consideration in the work that the professional associations do and that there is fair access to training material that provides access to certain disciplines.

There are a host of actions that the federal government could take to demonstrate its leadership. It must start by understanding its responsibilities regarding the vitality of the francophone communities. It will be difficult to enhance the vitality of francophone communities in the context of a shortage in which people are unable to have their credentials recognized or find ways to complete the training that would enable them to access the professions. That work should be started.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Ms. Veronis, I heard you say we need to open more embassies and processing centres for immigration applications from francophone African countries. Would you please tell us more about that?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

A brief response, please, Ms. Veronis.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

Yes, I suggested mobile clinics, which don't need to be permanent and which can move around, or webinars.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin, and thanks to your son for being here today.

Now it's the turn of Bernard Généreux, who has five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you know, a new Official Languages Act has just been passed. The Department of Citizenship and Immigration has new authorities under that act which it will have to apply and implement.

With regard to what Mr. Samson discussed and what we heard during previous testimony, I want to go back to what you said, Ms. Veronis. Instead of dividing the department in two, couldn't we create, within the department, a francophone department that, to a certain degree, would have to implement the new act, oversee coordination and ensure respect for equality between English and French and the entire interdepartmental and intergovernmental relationship with the provinces?

I've been thinking about this since you said it. It seems to me it's like cutting a tree in two with a fork. It's almost impossible to think that it can be done one day. Instead of imagining things and hoping, couldn't we create, within the department itself, an agency that would specifically ensure that the act is implemented? I'm going to side with Mr. Samson here. That would be an attractive recommendation. What do you think of it?

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

The idea isn't to divide the department but rather to create an organization, an agency. As was pointed out earlier, the francophone communities aren't sovereign. They don't have authority over immigration, unlike Quebec, for example.

One could imagine the provinces creating other entities. We know that candidates from the provinces function very well. Francophone immigration could be transformed that way. I think there are many options. Perhaps we don't need to implement them all at once because that would complicate matters.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

To my mind, on a perfect organization chart, that agency would report directly to the office of the minister to ensure a quick reaction or greater agility.

What do you think about that, Mr. Normand? My question is also for Mr. Viglione.

[Martin Normand]

I'll be brief because I want to give Mr. Viglione a chance to answer the question.

Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada already has a francophone immigration directorate. The problem is responsibility. You said so yourself: If that office were placed higher on the org chart and reported directly to an assistant deputy minister who had interdepartmental responsibilities, real work could be done within the department to ensure that the francophone lens is applied everywhere, not only in matters under the responsibility of the francophone immigration directorate.

I think that's the path to take.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

What are people thinking in New Brunswick, Mr. Viglione?

[Francesco Viglione]

Personally, I would separate immigration in Quebec from that in the rest of the provinces. It also has to be said that far more files regarding immigration to Quebec are being processed than those concerning francophone immigration to the other provinces. I wouldn't create two departments, but I would separate the files of people wishing to immigrate to Quebec from those of francophones wanting to immigrate to other provinces.

Personally, I'm a francophone, and the federal government took two years to process my immigration file.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Welcome to the club.

Ms. Veronis and Mr. Normand, you've been working in this field for many years. Do you get the sense there's been an improvement? Obviously, the act has just been passed; so it hasn't really been systematically implemented.

According to the testimony we've heard for many years—I've been sitting on this committee for eight years—we don't always get the impression that things are truly moving forward. Do you have the impression there have been any significant advances?

It has to be said that the Liberal government invested an enormous amount of money during the COVID‑19 pandemic, and even before that. Have you seen a real difference?

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

To a certain extent, I think that, yes, there has been a major difference. When I was an international student, it was virtually impossible to become a permanent resident. Now it's already working much better for students.

Yes, there have been enormous investments. However, all immigration has increased. To my mind, the present challenge is to raise the francophone percentage target. If we had maintained the previous figures, we might have reached or exceeded the target, but all immigration has increased.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you, Ms. Veronis.

Before we continue, I would simply like to repeat my colleague's words: “cutting a tree in two with a fork”.

Ms. Lecomte, from the Library of Parliament, should note that down to inspire us in future.

Mr. Samson, you have five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for their expertise and suggestions regarding this extremely important field.

According to a government publication on immigration, today: “Immigration accounts for almost 100% of Canada's labour force growth, and, by 2032, it's projected to account for 100% of Canada's population growth.” When I was young, Acadians had 9, 10 or 11 children, but they don't have as many today. So immigration will be the key.

Ms. Veronis, you're proposing a separate, independent and different structure. Mr. Généreux asked you some questions about duplication. You clearly explained that duplication wasn't the desired effect and that we should look for specific characteristics based on the needs of the communities. I believe that Africa is where we'll find the largest number of francophones.

You've told us a number of very important things. We can have the students who are already here permanently sooner. Mr. Normand proposed that the colleges and universities play a role. I believe that my colleague from New Brunswick discussed the refugees that we could recruit. That gives us an attractive playing field.

If you were the minister and had two suggestions to make for the new policy that's to be put in place in June 2024, what would you propose?

My question is for all three witnesses, and they have approximately 40 seconds each in which to respond.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

Family reunification, which I discussed—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I want to know what you would include in your francophone immigration policy if you were the minister and were drafting that policy.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

You say “policy”?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It has to do it, so what are the two most important things the government can do to turn quickly on a dime?