Official Languages Committee on Oct. 30th, 2025

[Ronald Ajavon]

We're talking about the whole budget issue here, about real equivalence. Because of their limited budget, French-language schools can't always offer what the English-language school next door offers. This creates an inequity, a situation where there is no real equivalence, whether in terms of curriculum or the condition of the schools.

For example, a parent who sees a 30 or 100-year-old French-language school, which is located next to a newly built and sometimes very beautiful English-language school, abandons their values and sends their child to the English-language school.

I hear about it from friends, and they're sorry. Their choice was very difficult, but they ended up sending their children to the English-language school.

These are recurring situations year after year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

Mr. Beaulieu, you have four seconds left.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Fiola, I'll come back to you in the next round of questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

Thank you very much.

Before we move on to the second round of questions, I will provide an update on the situation. The technical team worked with the online witnesses and made some changes. The team is optimistic that it will work, but we need to test the sound.

I propose that we suspend the meeting for a minute or two to test the sound with the witnesses.

Then we can start the next round of questions.

I'm suspending the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

I call the meeting back to order.

I'd like to thank the online witnesses and the technical team who worked very hard. The sound is working now. It's acceptable.

If the committee agrees, I propose that we give the witnesses online five minutes to make their presentations. That way, members would be able to ask all the witnesses questions during the next rounds of questions.

We'll be done with the witnesses at 12:45 p.m., so we'll have 15 minutes left to deal with the subject proposed by Mr. Beaulieu.

Is that okay with everyone? Can we continue like this?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

Ms. Lachance, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Nathalie Lachance, President, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all members of the committee.

My name is Nathalie Lachance, and I am the president of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta, or ACFA. With me today is our executive director, Isabelle Laurin.

I sincerely thank you for the invitation to testify before you as part of this important study on the minority-language education continuum.

Since 1926, the ACFA has been defending the rights, gains and vitality of Alberta's francophonie. Today, it represents more than 261,000 French-speaking Albertans, as well as some 50 francophone organizations across the province.

We welcome the resumption of the committee's work on this crucial topic. In December 2024, the Fédération des conseils scolaires francophones de l'Alberta, the Fédération des parents francophones de l'Alberta and the ACFA submitted a joint brief presenting a series of recommendations. This brief followed an appearance by the Fédération des conseils scolaires francophones de l'Alberta on October 24, 2024. Today, I would like to come back to some major challenges, particularly in early childhood and post-secondary education.

When francophone families don't have access to child care services in their language, we see early anglicization of children before they even enter school. This language loss continues throughout the educational process, all the way to post-secondary education.

However, if one of the links in the continuum from early childhood to post-secondary is weakened, the entire French-language educational system is weakened. The result is clear: fewer French-speaking graduates, fewer workers able to provide services in French, an erosion of the right guaranteed by section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and increased assimilation in our communities.

In Alberta, the francophone education system suffers from structural underfunding at all levels. For example, in early childhood, a number of regions in the province have a 0% coverage rate for French-language child care services. At the post-secondary level, the lack of a variety of programs was confirmed at the second summit on French-language post-secondary education in Alberta, organized by the ACFA in April 2024. In addition, the report of the estates general of the Association des collèges et universités de la Francophonie canadienne showed that the western provinces are the most disadvantaged when it comes to offering programs in French. While 18.8% of the francophone population lives there, only 7.9% of francophone minority university programs are offered in that region.

This situation stems in part from the federal funding formulas currently in place, which do not reflect demographic growth or the unique realities of Alberta's francophonie.

Between 2018 and 2023, Alberta ranked ninth in the country for per capita funding for minority-language education, at $60 per francophone, compared to a national average of $153. This means that our community is constantly having to do more with fewer resources.

We are proposing concrete recommendations to strengthen the francophone education continuum in Alberta and elsewhere in the country.

First, the funding formulas in the protocol for agreements for minority-language education and second-language instruction between the Government of Canada and the provinces and territories, which concerns the Department of Canadian Heritage more directly, must be adjusted to reflect the rapid growth of francophone populations and regional realities. Equitable funding is an essential condition for substantive equality in education.

Second, the funding mechanisms for community spaces need to be reviewed to lighten the administrative burden, allow funding for the modernization and expansion of existing infrastructure and cover additional operating costs related to integrated early childhood spaces.

Third, the allocation mechanisms for post-secondary education in French must be reviewed to ensure an adequate supply of programs and to support the training of a skilled French-speaking workforce. Currently, funding under the memorandum of understanding is in competition between primary and secondary education, on the one hand, and post-secondary education, on the other, which weakens both.

Fourth, we need to implement strategies to integrate the internationally trained workforce by simplifying prior learning recognition and supporting ongoing training. Francophone immigration plays a key role in Alberta, but without adequate integration mechanisms, this potential remains under-exploited.

The francophone education continuum is not a luxury; it is essential to meet the constitutional obligations set out in section 23 of the charter, and it is a shared responsibility. Every link has to be strong, from early childhood to post-secondary, if we want to ensure the vitality and sustainability of our francophone communities.

The ACFA invites the committee to recommend concrete equity measures in the funding and governance of francophone education, adapted to regional realities and the growing needs of our communities in Alberta.

Thank you for your attention. We are available to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

Thank you, Ms. Lachance. I'm very pleased that the technical difficulties have been resolved so that we can hear your remarks.

We will now move on to the second round of questions.

Mr. Bélanger, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jim Belanger, Conservative, Sudbury East—Manitoulin—Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I have a question for you, Mr. Ajavon.

You mentioned a challenge related to underfunding in Saskatchewan. I'm always interested in numbers. According to the data I see, spending on these programs in your province is about $8 million a year.

Do you receive $8 million from each level of government, federal and provincial, or is that the total amount?

[Ronald Ajavon]

I think that's the total amount, but it must be said that we receive much less.

That amount is for the overall component. When I was talking about underfunding earlier, I was including capital and the operating budget. There is underfunding because of funding formulas that make it possible to create new schools. I was saying more specifically that the announcement of a new school must be made by the provincial government before the federal government can offer its share. However, it is the provincial government's announcement that is the most difficult and the one that is taking the longest.

For example, this year, a new school just opened in Regina, but we had already been asking for it for over 15 years. Students who were in junior kindergarten when this school was requested are now at university, so they haven't been able to benefit from these necessary services.

[Jim Belanger, Conservative, Sudbury East—Manitoulin—Nickel Belt, ON]

Okay.

I see that we spend about the same amount on minority-language education as we do on second-language learning. Do you think that's a good proportion or should it be different?

[Ronald Ajavon]

That's an excellent question and it raises a key point. We're talking about redress, but having an equivalent proportion is already a challenge for us, because redress involves programs, whether cultural programming or the community outreach, to fulfill our threefold mandate. It's not really possible to do that with the $2.4 million in funding we receive from the federal government.

The figure you have integrated all provincial services and notably includes what our departments use just for francophone programs. The school board therefore doesn't receive the entire amount. The proportion we receive isn't enough to meet the real needs of our communities.

[Jim Belanger, Conservative, Sudbury East—Manitoulin—Nickel Belt, ON]

How much do you think you would need to save francophone culture in your province?

[Ronald Ajavon]

I think we would need at least four times that amount to provide services and implement measures to help us counter the growing assimilation in our province.

[Jim Belanger, Conservative, Sudbury East—Manitoulin—Nickel Belt, ON]

I see another factor that interests me, which is that the proportion of French-language primary and secondary schools has increased from only 0.4% in 1983-84 to 1.1% in 2023.

We usually see a decline in services to francophones. What has led to this increase?

[Ronald Ajavon]

Immigration has been a big part of that growth.

That said, we must also consider the harms caused in the past. As I mentioned earlier to Mr. Beaulieu, there is still some reluctance and disengagement from the past. The provincial government must therefore take positive measures, including implementing adapted programs and building new schools, to welcome back these students who are disconnected from our system today because of insufficient infrastructure and services that are not comparable to those offered to the majority.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

You have 50 seconds left, Mr. Bélanger.

[Jim Belanger, Conservative, Sudbury East—Manitoulin—Nickel Belt, ON]

Okay.

So I'm going to continue on this subject, Mr. Ajavon.

In 2021, 16,000 children were eligible for French-language education, but only 2,000 of them were enrolled in francophone institutions. Why is that?

[Ronald Ajavon]

It's always the same problem. We need to have local schools and funding that meets the real needs of the system, comparable to what is offered to the majority. When those two elements aren't present, students go elsewhere. Parents want their children to study in French, but because they perceive that francophone services are the poor cousin of the education system and that they don't want to sacrifice their children's education, they send them to English-language schools.

When I talk about a systemic challenge, I'm talking about these difficulties that have existed for a number of years and that are perpetuated. That's why we recommend that the federal government intervene a little more positively with the provinces to put restorative measures in place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yvan Baker]

Mr. Bélanger, your time is up.

I now give the floor to Ms. Chenette for five minutes.

[Madeleine Chenette, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their very interesting testimony.

My question is for you, Mr. Fiola.

In recent weeks, the various witnesses we've heard from have emphasized the fact that people from the francophone community and those from the anglophone community shouldn't be grouped together in the same institutions, because there was a risk of assimilation. It wasn't necessarily higher education institutions, but rather high schools, elementary schools and so on.

Your model seems to have made it possible for you to integrate both communities well. Do you think this model causes greater assimilation?

What should we learn from your model, if we wanted to replicate it at lower levels in the education process? Do you think that's possible?

[Marco Fiola]

Thank you very much for that important question.

If we take this position of offering bilingual programming and creating an ecosystem where students can learn in both languages and become familiar with both cultures, it's because I see that there is currently a growing need for young English-speaking graduates who will have been educated in a bilingual or immersion setting, so that these future teachers, lawyers, sociologists and psychologists will be able to offer all services to the public in both languages. As a result, the availability of services in French and English will increase. People will then be able to access services in their own language, which can only have a positive effect on the preservation of French across the country.

French speakers in Canada are like parsley: they're everywhere, and they grow everywhere. And that's a good thing; they should be everywhere.

We can't think that we're going to find the magic solution without taking into account the fact that there is a bilingual and francophile population. It must take part in the search for solutions to preserve the future of French in Canada.

[Madeleine Chenette, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Fiola.

My next question is for Mr. Ajavon.

Do all students at the Conseil des écoles fransaskoises de Regina and Saskatoon go from a French-language elementary school to a French-language secondary school, or do a significant number of them go through the immersion system instead?

[Ronald Ajavon]

That's an excellent question, Ms. Chenette.

Yes, we lose a lot of students in grade 9, once again for service-related reasons. We need secondary schools that are comparable to those of the majority when it comes to services. It's really the actual equivalence of services that poses that challenge.