Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Since its inception in 1995, the gun registry has generated considerable public controversy. In spite of this, there have been some beneficial collateral effects. I' m convinced that the public at large -- users and non users alike -- is more aware of the dangers of firearms than in 1995. The ultimate outcome is enhanced public safety. We've also observed that users and non users alike are better informed about gun registration, storage and handling procedures.

Of course, statistics don't tell the whole story. I'll give you an example. I personally know some people who were involved in a firearm-related accident before the registry was set up in 1995. Two teenagers were playing with a gun that had not been stored properly and one was killed. I believe this accident would not have happened if the new firearms registration program had been in place. There is a tendency to evaluate the registry solely on the basis of the number of times it is referenced each day, the number of firearms registered, and so forth. However, the program overall has had a number of other positive effects, in terms of public safety and fewer accidents or incidents.

Mr. Martin, you stated earlier that the Firearms Centre also offers a training program. Is this program intended for the general public, or solely for gun users? I believe there would be many positive benefits if the program were to contain a component where the general public was informed of the dangers associated with firearms and with using them -- after all, we must respect gun users. The general public needs to be informed of the dangers of guns and of overly restricting their use. People should be allowed to use guns, but the registration system makes their use much safer.

Ms. Fraser, shouldn't there be a better education program in place, where outcomes could be measured?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

I think you're quite correct. There are positive results from the training program. Right now, the intention is that anyone who's looking to acquire a licence would have to go through the training program. It's not necessarily directed at people who have no intention of acquiring a firearm, but anybody in Canada, if they want, could conceivably take the training. Right now it is focused on people who are looking to be licensed to acquire firearms.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Shouldn't there be a better public education program in place, not only for gun users, but for non-users as well, to better inform people about the dangers and procedures that must be followed by users? That way, members of the general public could help to improve public safety by sounding the alarm when they observe firearms being used improperly.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

Without a doubt. Awareness and education are beneficial, and knowledge gives people the power to conduct themselves in a safe manner. Whether or not it's practical with such a large undertaking...it would be nice if we could do that, but there again, we are trying to be efficient in our funding here. I think we have a lot of work to do in terms of getting the firearms program up to where we want it to be, and possibly in the future we could look at that as an awareness program for the public at large.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Martin. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Laforest.

Mr. Lake, five minutes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you.

A few questions. First, for Mr. Baker, it's a big question, but I want a fairly short answer. It seems as if there are massive information and structural problems with this system. What is the main reason for those problems? This isn't personal--you weren't there all the way through--but is it an incompetence problem with the department, is it a leadership problem, was it a lack of resources? These are huge problems that really shouldn't have happened. What's the issue?

[William Baker]

My first comment would be that the data isn't as problematic as has been suggested. There are problems with the data, but not nearly to the magnitude some have suggested. By and large--

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

To the magnitude the Auditor General suggested?

[William Baker]

Even if we look at the Auditor General's report, at the work that's been done to verify the accuracy of registration information, in less than 0.5% or 0.1% of cases is the error significant to the classification of the firearm. So yes, there is work to do.

As I said earlier, in large part this was a product of the deluge of applications to register firearms at one point, and we're continuing to live with the fallout from that.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay, so maybe lack of resources, given the amount of--

[William Baker]

I'm reluctant to say lack of resources because important amounts of public money were spent in delivering this program.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

But maybe not quite enough to do the job properly.

[William Baker]

It could have been a combination of resources and approaches to doing it.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay. Mr. Martin, I want you to walk me through a little bit.... We talk about 5,000 to 6,500 hits a day going on the system. The police officer gets information that tells him there's a registered gun in a house he's going to visit. How does that affect his approach?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

Not hits a day, but inquiries. The inquiry could be a “no results” return. So if an officer has a call to a resident--and it will depend on the nature of the call--the communications centre gets a warning that the residents--

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So there's a gun in the house. How does that affect his approach?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

The officer will probably call for backup.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So he'd be even more careful? Okay. I want to stop you there because I have a limited amount of time. The extension of that is he would be less careful if he did not find out there was a weapon in the house.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

No.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Well, that's the extension of it, though. You're saying he'd be more careful if he found out there was, so if he didn't find out there was, he'd be less careful.

I want to go further on that and say there's obviously bad information. There are illegal weapons that aren't registered; half the weapons that were in the system, 1.2 million, have not been registered yet. There could be all sorts of potential for a mistake, and you could have officers being less careful because of the system, they have more confidence in the system than they ought, and it would put them in danger because of the system.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

With respect, you made a lot of statements there, and I don't know which one you want me to...I don't even remember everything you said.

You talked about illegal weapons and all that kind of thing.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

There are all sorts of reasons why, when an inquiry is made, the answer would not tell them there's a weapon in the house, and it might be wrong. There are a lot of weapons in these houses that would not register on an inquiry to the system.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

We don't know how many weapons are not registered; we know how many are registered. So when we have that piece of information--

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

We know there are at least 600,000 that aren't registered, right?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

No. If you're talking about renewals, the information is still there. Because of the amnesty, the renewal has not been effected.