Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[Raymond Bélair]

He was part of the program administration with Colonel Taillefer.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

And you had an ongoing working relationship with these individuals.

[Raymond Bélair]

On an operational basis, yes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

And these were the people, Mr. Goodfellow, that you were relying on to provide an even playing field in the tendering process.

[Richard Goodfellow]

These were the individuals who were providing, as indicated in the chart, their statement of work and were working on the evaluation criteria that were part of that RFP, yes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So, Mr. Goodfellow, this same chart that you just referenced also states that these individuals were required, with the provision of a detailed statement of work, to include estimated volumetrics. They never provided that to you, did they?

[Richard Goodfellow]

That was highlighted right from the start at the kickoff meeting, and the volumes that were provided--the business volumes--DND did update. It was the methodology used to calculate the property management services that was the same from 2002 to 2004.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

But the Auditor General's report said there's actually no record of your making a request of these individuals for volumes. You were in charge of this process.

[Richard Goodfellow]

There are minutes from the first kick-off meeting that document that we notified the client departments to provide the detailed statement of work and define the volumetrics required for the requirement. That is documented.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Could we get those?

[Richard Goodfellow]

Yes, sir.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Atyeo, I'll follow up on Mr. Christopherson's final question to you.

You referenced “tip of the iceberg”. You gave some examples from the past. But can you provide us with some information of the nine-tenths the Auditor General has not included in the report?

[Bruce Atyeo]

Yes, I'd love to have that opportunity. I've already alluded to a couple of things in response to Mr. Christopherson.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Do you have any specifics?

[Bruce Atyeo]

For example, another specific would be the answer that Mr. Bélair gave to the issue of pricing property management fees. The RFP asked us to put a ceiling price on the cost of property management for providing management services to employees who decided not to sell their houses.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I hate to interrupt the witness, but I want clarification on this. You said a ceiling on property management services. Did you say property management services or to administer property management services?

[Bruce Atyeo]

We were to quote a ceiling price for the provision of property management services to public servants and members of the Canadian Forces who did not want to sell their houses—not unlike having to quote a ceiling price for the real estate commission that would be paid to real estate agents selling the homes of transferred public servants, or legal fees, or anything else.

So my understanding—and believe me, this is not clear to me either—is that Mr. Bélair said they could get this work done for nothing. I can't. I have to hire a property management firm out there somewhere to find a tenant, do the inspections, collect the rents, pay the bills, etc. I haven't found any that will do it for nothing. I know Mr. Bélair has access to a lot of Royal LePage real estate agents who might be able to do it in return for listings, but we don't. So I can't figure out how he could get zero for services that he has to buy from some other service provider. That's number one.

Secondly, at the bidders' conference, Mr. Goodfellow made it absolutely clear—and it was made clear in the RFP—that if you don't respond to any part of the RFP, your proposal will be considered non-responsive. Yet here we are saying that you have to provide a ceiling price for property management and Royal LePage didn't provide one. To me, that's non-responsive. Why didn't Public Works say, “Royal LePage, I'm sorry, your proposal was non-responsive”?

I could go on and on, but I'm out of time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

I believe Mr. Poilievre is taking the first part of the next session.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Bélair, in her report the Auditor General says she found that of the ten Canadian Forces members she reviewed, all ten of them paid an amount for property management services. Did they pay those amounts to you, to your firm? You were supposed to cover the costs of property management for a price of zero. Is that correct?

[Raymond Bélair]

Property management in this instance is pretty clear. Property management fees are from a personalized benefit. This is money that the transferees have to do what they need to do. It does not cost the Crown any more. This is a formula; this is funding that has been given to every employee. It is not a flow-through cost to the Crown.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay, but that's not the question. The question I have is that the contract says in clear language that the fees for property management were to be included at a zero percent ceiling rate, meaning zero dollars.

Are you telling me that you did not provide that service then, that you relied on someone else to provide that service?

[Raymond Bélair]

What I'm saying is that we may disagree on the interpretation of the policy and then the contract, and with respect to the work of the Auditor General and the deliberations of this committee, we are trying, and we have begun working with our client departments, to review these files and what's at question here.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Are you reviewing them because you think there might be a possibility that you in fact committed to provide property management services at zero dollars?

[Raymond Bélair]

We need to ensure that the interpretation of the policies and the contract are well documented and—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Wait a second here. You're not clear on your own contract? When you signed a contract, you did not know whether or not you would provide property management services? Is that what you're telling me? Years after that contract was signed, you still don't know whether you were supposed to include property management services in the contract?