Evidence of meeting #46 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was senior.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
She didn't call or didn't have anyone contact you from her office to ascertain any of the facts--nothing whatsoever?
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
That's correct. However, I do have a copy of Hansard where she was questioned. I can't remember the members at this time. It could have been Sorenson and Anderson from maybe out west. I don't know if anybody is here....
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
They questioned her at the time, why she wasn't investigating the Commissioner of the RCMP, and I believe her response was—and I'm just paraphrasing—well, there's no reason to.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So she thought there was no reason to investigate.
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Well, all I can say is that I read that in the Hansard. I don't know what her thoughts were.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
The alleged, or obvious, improprieties related to the pension program. During what years did they occur?
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I think others would maybe be better suited to respond. I think it was around 2000 that they started it, and when it was finally stopped, when they stopped the money, was in about 2003, when I first made the complaint. There was another $14 million that was allocated, and I think they pulled that back, but $40 million was spent by that time.
Conservative
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
That was between 2000 and 2003. But the project kept going and is still ongoing today.
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
But I think once the audit report was done, in around 2003, a lot of things were stopped. A lot of contracting was stopped.
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Except for the insurance. They just kept on doing the same old thing with the insurance.
Bloc
Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Good afternoon.
Mr. Macaulay, you said that $30 million had been spent over three years and that the Auditor General's report covered only one year. In your opinion, was this $30 million spent fraudulently?
Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I would not say that all of the $30 million was spent fraudulently. For us, the problem was that we discovered contracts and expenditures incurred before 2003 and 2002, when the internal auditor did his audit. We are not sure that the expenditures incurred during the two preceding years had been included. No one checked into that.
Bloc
Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
You say that the money went from pension plans to individuals, and that 21 people were definitely involved. Do you have any evidence of that?
Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I think Mr. Gork is in the best position to talk about these 21 individuals. He is the person who gave the report to the commissioner and to senior management. As to the money taken by those involved, as far as we are concerned, this matter is very clear. People were making a lot of money and were hiring their children or all sorts of others to cut costs. It was not direct, but money was ending up in their pockets.
Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Some are and others are not.
Bloc
Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Mr. Gork, 21 people may have been involved in illegal or fraudulent activities. May we have some proof of that? Were these matters revealed by one of the investigations?
Assistant Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
First off, I'd have to go back to the OPS criminal investigation, and to whatever evidence was taken to the crown attorney, who felt there was not enough evidence to lay criminal charges.
As for the internal aspect, one of the things about dealing with internal investigations is that it depends on who knew what at what particular time, and then the clock starts running, which is different from the way things work with criminal charges. So once somebody in authority might have known what transpired, or should have known, they would have one year to lay charges under the RCMP Act. It's very restrictive. You've got a one-year window.
I cannot speak to who knew what at what particular time, with regard to the internals. The only thing I can tell you is that there was reason, if those time limits had not been exploded, to be able to lay charges under the RCMP Act.
Bloc
Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Am I mistaken to say that some of these people are still employed by the RCMP?
