Public Accounts Committee on March 28th, 2007

[A/Commr David Gork]

I believe you're correct.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay. Merci beaucoup, Madame Brunelle.

Mr. Williams, you have three minutes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Did the Auditor General give any of the people who were interviewed by her a reason as to why she said it's not within the scope of her investigation?

Mr. Macaulay, you talked to her.

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

No. We just discussed—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Lewis?

[Ron Lewis]

Yes. Because I had spent so much time over a three- or four-year period dealing with them, I was able to ask them how it was going to turn out. I got the impression that I might not be happy with the end result, because they can't really state certain things, but if you want to get the truth out, get a parliamentary hearing.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, well, you're getting a parliamentary—

[Ron Lewis]

That's right, because I sent a document to all you members.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Frizzell, you talked to the Auditor General. Did she give you any reason why this wasn't all going to hang out to dry?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Those are standard audit principles. They set down a scope. The scope was merely to make sure the RCMP had responded to its internal audit.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Walker, you talked to the Auditor General too, didn't you?

[S/Sgt Steve Walker]

My conversation with the Auditor General took place after the report had been released.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. There is no question, Mr. Chairman, that this has gone far beyond the Auditor General's report. We have minutes of meetings being falsified. We have Treasury Board guidelines on tendering processes being bypassed and ignored. We're hearing allegations--I presume more than allegations, confirmations--that half-million-dollar cheques have been written out of the fund, that outsourcing was covered up to make it look like it didn't have to be done.

Mr. Chairman, maybe not at this point in time, but at your discretion, I would move that we take half an hour when we come back on the 16th of April, at our next meeting, to go in camera and decide what we're going to do with this. This is going to, I think, require a complete investigation to restore the public's confidence in the RCMP. These are not junior officers. These are the most senior officers of the force making the most serious of allegations, and this has to be addressed at the earliest opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Williams. I'll take your motion as notice and we will deal with it.

Mr. Christopherson, three minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Picking up on Mr. Williams' last point, I concur that we need to be giving some serious thought as to how we proceed, and it may be that the proceedings are initiated by us but that we aren't the ones who do it. I mean, this is big, and I agree that we have to restore the faith that the public has in the RCMP, but what I'm hearing is that we need to restore the faith in the rank and file of the RCMP as well, that it is the institution they believe it is and that they commit themselves to.

Quite frankly, also, given that everything so far is pretty much allegations, if people are being wronged here, we need to make sure that anyone who has been innocently put in a context of potentially being alleged of wrongdoing can get their name cleared. That's how far along we've gone here. But I will utilize my moment just to ask a couple of questions to follow up.

I believe--Chief Superintendent Macaulay, it may have been you, or was that Mr. Walker who made reference to an OPP report--that there was an OPP report that gave an example of similar problems? I just wanted to see whether that was something we need to be aware of here.

[S/Sgt Steve Walker]

Yes. Early in the investigation we were made aware that there had been a previous investigation into financial improprieties and wrongdoings in regard to contract and procurement issues and a host of other things that in 2001 were investigated by the Ontario Provincial Police. Part of that investigation included the contracting procurement issue relating to renovations to the commissioner's office, and some sanction did come out of that. So we looked at that to try to see some rationale as to why it occurred again.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Did that focus on what we heard earlier? I'm just trying to see where we go with this from here. Is it only the director of the NCPC? This is somebody else who would be responsible for these issues? These persons of interest did not include that person?

[S/Sgt Steve Walker]

Yes.

[Ron Lewis]

I'm the complainant in that investigation as well. It seems that a lot of my duties were labour relations. It seemed that a lot of my duties became investigation.

What happened was that in 2001 an assistant commissioner in the RCMP complained openly in an e-mail to all his employees that they were accepting privileges from contractors, which is not only a Criminal Code offence under section 121 but a violation of government conflict regulations, the code of conduct—the whole thing.

Mr. Gauvin, who was the comptroller or chief financial officer of the RCMP at that time chastised him openly for raising the issue.

Then I was asked to come in when, after he left the unit, four sergeants were asked to dig into it, and on a Monday morning they were brought in and told, “Your unit's being disbanded.” They asked when. It usually takes a month or two to clear up. He said, “No, today, right now. It's over.”

They came to me, and I went to the commissioner, through our national executive, and passed on the information to the commissioner that the deputy commissioner had failed under Regulation 46 to cause an investigation when reported, and nothing was done.

So I wrote a formal, written complaint, because I had dealt with the commissioner before, and when I do things verbally he doesn't seem to remember. So I brought the complaint to the assistant commissioner in A Division, and as he read it, he looked at me and said, “Gee, I'm involved too.” He eventually resigned. I get back to the old story: this is not the RCMP I joined; it changed five years ago.

As a result, I forced the investigation to go beyond this member, because he couldn't deal with it then, and he was the only person in the RCMP who had authority to deal with it.

It was turned over to the OPP. They came in and investigated. Nineteen people were either charged criminally or internally; some resigned before they were charged. Included were our chief financial officer, Mr. Gauvin, and our chief human resource officer, Mr. Ewanovich. Mr. Ewanovich at that time was a TCE, what we call a temporary civilian employee on contract. He could have been let go without cause, and we had cause. In fact, when he was hired the year before, while he was being interviewed for a suitability security clearance, he caused an investigation to be conducted against him for harassment. It was founded. An assistant commissioner and a staff sergeant conducted it. Staffing said don't hire him. The commissioner hired him anyway. That's when our problems began. He came in under.... He's the guy in charge of the RCMP policy for harassment, and he was a harasser, a founded harasser. It's incredible that these things were allowed to happen.

There's a similar.... The same people involved in this pension insurance, the same.... And some of them are still here today. Some of the people who were under investigation were removed from their positions because they couldn't be allowed to stay in there. Once the limitation of action expired, they were back on the job. They're out there right now commanding divisions.

That's why we're here today. We need some action there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Rodriguez.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, I'd like to seek unanimous consent for a motion that has been circulated.

The motion reads:

It is most evident from today’s proceedings that there is still significant testimony which must be presented to the Public Accounts Committee in order for the committee to have a full and complete account of the serious issues of potential perjury, fraud, and interference in criminal investigations surrounding the findings of the Auditor General in Chapter 9 of the Auditor General’s Report of November 2006 – Pension and Insurance Administration – Royal Canadian Mounted Police and previous testimony provided to this committee by senior RCMP officials. Consequently, I move that the following persons be asked to appear as witnesses before the Public Accounts Committee on April 16, 2007:

Paul Gauvin, Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership - RCMP

Rosalie Burton former Director General HR – RCMP (Presently Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Corporate HR Policies, Strategies and Programs)

Deputy Commissioner Barbara George - RCMP

Former Commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli – RCMP

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Before this goes any further, does Mr. Wrzesnewskyj have unanimous consent for the tabling of this motion?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I don't think so, Mr. Chairman. I'd rather deal with it, as I said, in camera at a later date.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.