Public Accounts Committee on March 28th, 2007

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

It's not that I'm opposed to it. I'm just saying let's be a little more rational and reasonable as we move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay. We'll take your motion on notice, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I'd like to propose an amendment to that motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No. I'd rather deal with it at the time, Ms. Sgro, because—

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

It's a friendly amendment. I'd like to add two other names to that list: Dominic Crupi and Jim Ewanovich.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, that's fine. There's no problem. We can do that.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I accept that as a friendly amendment, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Rodriguez, three minutes.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'd just like to clarify one point.

Mr. Lewis, you spoke about a document that you had sent to Mr. Poilievre. I assume it was sent to all committee members. If so, when was it sent?

[Ron Lewis]

I sent the documents to all the members of the committee at that time--I notice there are some new faces here and that some have disappeared--on the 16th of November, which is five months ago maybe. I also sent them to every member on the public safety committee, because I wasn't sure who was going to deal with it. Because that committee oversees the RCMP, I felt they should know too. When I talked to them, they said this committee is handling it. All members of both committees received a copy.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Did you follow up with committee members, or did you simply send the document?

[Ron Lewis]

I didn't actually talk to any of the committee members, if I recall, but I talked to a lot of their legislative assistants--if that is the proper title--and also to some other members who took a keen interest, such as the ones who were mentioned in Hansard. I think I connected with three of those people as well.

I notice there are a lot of people on double committees too.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It just seems so flagrant to me. It is even surprising that so much time passed before we reached this point today. I think what we are talking about today is likely a bombshell.

Mr. Macaulay, if we were to calculate all the money that may have been diverted or at least the money about which there is a problem today, what would be the approximate total?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

I cannot tell you. I was in at the very early stages. Denise Revine was giving me documents, and we were working our way through it. Once I was sent to the Department of National Defence, my only link back was mostly through Denise.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Does anyone have any idea about the amount, or a ballpark figure?

No? Then we will have to find that out.

Someone said that Mr. Paul Gauvin was almost constantly in a conflict of interest situation. One of the first people who spoke said that. Was that you, Mr. Lewis?

[Ron Lewis]

One of my recommendations, number three on my opening statement..... If you look at 9.51, I believe it is, of the OAG report, chapter 9, it recommends many things, but one of them was for the RCMP to review the charging principles. I guess they deal with Treasury Board to allocate money. After the charging principles are determined, then look back at the insurance fund and see how much was taken properly.

Mr. Gauvin was in charge--he still is in charge--of finance. He was the one who took it out in the first place. It's like asking the fox to go in and count the chickens after he has been accused of eating them. It's ridiculous. Somebody else has to look into this.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

And Mr. Gauvin is still there. Is that correct?

[Ron Lewis]

That's right...to this day. This is the second time he has been involved in a criminal investigation. It's the second time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rodriguez.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, three minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I have some short questions, just to tie a few things up.

You said there was a person who came into the operation that you weren't happy with, Mr. Gork. My impression is that he was a bad apple. It was the chief commissioner who appointed this fellow...Iwonchuk or something?

[A/Commr David Gork]

Ewanovich.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Do you know where he came from? Is he an RCMP person? What was his background?

Try to keep it short if you could.

[A/Commr David Gork]

I believe he came in from Public Works or Treasury Board; I'm not sure which. He was not RCMP.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I want to go to Chief Superintendent Macaulay. He alluded to some person who came in to a situation.... You said political patronage. Who was this person? Are you talking about internal RCMP politics, or is there something more to this?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

This was Rosalie Burton. Rosalie Burton worked with Jim Ewanovich. She eventually ended up at Nortel. He bridged her into a position, a direct hiring, with the RCMP, through Barb George.