Public Accounts Committee on April 25th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'll ask the law clerk to speak to that issue, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Tardi.

[Gregory Tardi, Procedural Clerk]

Mr. Chairman, my understanding of a witness oath before this committee is that it's a full envelope and that it includes both the verbal testimony presented viva voce to the committee and any document that originates from the witness that is addressed to the committee or to anyone else. In other words, the witness is asserting that everything that the witness says and has written and is presenting to the committee is true.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

Assistant Commissioner LaFosse, you are under oath and you made a clear and unequivocal statement that Ms. Barbara George had communicated to you her desire to have Staff Sergeant Frizzell removed from the case. This was before any action had been taken. Do you stand by that remark?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

Absolutely, sir.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I believe you said also that when you read the blues from this meeting, you had said to Superintendent Macaulay words to the effect, “Why would she lie?” You made that statement based on the fact of your own personal knowledge that she had contacted you specifically and directly before the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell. Is that correct?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

That's right, sir. It was based on my contact with her, the penned note and the phone call—that's it. That's what I based that remark on.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you very much.

I know this investigation has given you all a great deal of grief, and indeed all of us a great deal of grief, including the 26,000 members of the force.

Commissioner, have you talked to Superintendent Macaulay and Staff Sergeant Frizzell to get their version of the facts on this case?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Yes, I have.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Therefore, you're taking this matter seriously. You're reporting all the facts to the investigator appointed by Minister Day?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Absolutely.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And you feel that you will assert to them that they follow and investigate everything that you're prepared to give to them?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Absolutely.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This may be a surprise to some people. I have been advised that there were some people in the NCPC who were being paid by Great-West Life. Are you aware of that?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

No, I'm not aware of that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I have some information given to me verbally; I don't have it verified. This is a problem with this investigation. We hear information coming from all different sources. That's why I thought it might be best that these two gentlemen give a full presentation to us.

We have allegations such as people working in the NCPC being paid by Great-West Life, which was the underwriter, and there was some discussion around who was actually administering, who was paying for the administering, and so on. This case has more and more tentacles going all over the place. Therefore, I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that the commissioner investigate this matter and write to the clerk, write to this committee, confirming whether my information is indeed correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Could I get a point of clarification? Is it your allegation that these people, under the employ of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, were paid in addition by the underwriter, or were they full-time employees of the underwriter working within the premises of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm not exactly sure, Mr. Chairman, but the information I have is that they were paid by Great-West Life and they were working in NCPC. I'm not exactly sure that they were actually running the administration of the insurance, but theoretically that's why they were there and that is why they were being paid, because Great-West Life had taken over the administration.

You may recall that, early on in our proceedings, Staff Sergeant Frizzell had talked about how there was this idea that we'd get Great-West Life to do the administration so we wouldn't have to go out to contract and convince the Treasury Board; we could bypass the sole-source contracting, and so on. This is a whole murky area that I don't understand, Mr. Chairman.

The commissioner has different information from what I have. That's why I'm asking the commissioner if she can investigate this matter and write to you confirming whether the information I have is true or otherwise, because this is why we can't do a proper job here. These are some of the concerns that I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Just to finalize this, do you agree to that, Commissioner Busson?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Could I seek a clarification? I've written down here that the honourable member would like me to investigate whether members of the NCPC were part of or paid for by Great-West Life.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That's correct, that people who were working in that office, regardless of what they were doing—one would assume they're part of the insurance, but I have no guarantee that they were—were actually being paid by Great-West Life as employees of them.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I will investigate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Other information I have is that when Great-West Life was asked if they would actually take over the administration of the plan, they said, well, we'll have to think about it; of course, there has to be an analysis done. When they did the analysis, they sent the pension plan a bill, the better part of a quarter of a million dollars, to cover off the expense of doing the analysis of whether or not they wanted the contract.

You can see how murky it becomes, Commissioner.

This is why I think this is not the proper forum, Mr. Chairman. These are allegations that are out there floating around. I would hope that the investigator would take this information and report on it specifically when he tables his report in the middle of June. We need to have the answer to these kinds of allegations that are floating out there.

I don't have any other questions. Does somebody want to take—

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We're going to get a response from Commissioner Busson.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

If I might, Mr. Chairman, I'm just looking for clarification of whether or not the honourable member would like me to investigate that as well, or whether that was just a...?