Public Accounts Committee on April 25th, 2007

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Thank you, Commissioner Busson.

Mr. Lake, you have four minutes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Loeppky, Mr. Roy was the lead investigator on this case, and he testified before us on April 18 that he'd worked for the RCMP, as has been mentioned, for one year under Barb George. He also testified that he worked closely with Rosalie Burton. Was this known at the time that he was placed as lead investigator on this investigation?

[Garry Loeppky]

No.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

If it had been known, what impact would it have had?

[Garry Loeppky]

I would have discussed the potential for conflict with Chief Bevan.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Should he have brought that up at the time it was being discussed that he would be the lead investigator?

[Garry Loeppky]

When I spoke to Chief Bevan on March 8, my only direction was that Assistant Commissioner Dave Gork would be the logistics coordinator from an RCMP perspective. Chief Bevan's comment was that he and Sue—I presume that was Deputy Chief Sue O'Sullivan—would be meeting with Dave to get the investigation in motion. At no time did we discuss who would be the lead investigator that he would identify.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

There's already an inappropriateness, perhaps, to this, but going further down the road, Staff Sergeant Frizzell starts to discover that Ms. George and Ms. Burton may have been involved in this, and he brings this up to Mr. Roy.

Based on your experience, when Mr. Roy was approached by Mr. Frizzell and started to discover these things, what should he have done? What would protocol dictate?

[Garry Loeppky]

I can't speak for what was on Mr. Roy's mind, but I would have anticipated that if it were brought to his attention, he would have raised with his chain of command--and that would have been the Ottawa Police Service--the fact of the issue having been raised with him.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay. Is it fair to say that he should have probably stepped down from the investigation at that point? Someone he had worked for a few years earlier and someone he worked closely with were now under investigation. Should he not have stepped down at that point?

[Garry Loeppky]

I think you have to understand what the circumstances were around his secondment. Ultimately it would be the chief's decision.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Regardless of the secondment, though.... It shouldn't matter why he was there. He had worked for Ms. George; he worked closely with Ms. Burton. Obviously Staff Sergeant Frizzell was very clear that there was an investigation that was involving them. The circumstances of the secondment seem irrelevant to me.

[Garry Loeppky]

I think certainly the perception could be that he should have been removed, but if they had confidence in his independence to do that investigation, then that's a decision they would make on their own.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Mr. LaFosse, we've heard the word “fulsome” here a lot over the last few days. In the interest of fulsomeness, I just want to know, after hearing what you've heard today and during our hearings here, whether there's anything else you think we should know. Do you have anything you might want to add?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

There's nothing from my perspective, simply because, as I've indicated, it was a sliver of time as far as my contact with this is concerned. It rests with the committee--whatever direction the committee wants to go and whoever you would like to call--but from my perspective, I've divulged everything that I'm aware of in this entire affair.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Mr. Loeppky, is there anything regarding this investigation that maybe you haven't said that you think would be important for us to know?

[Garry Loeppky]

I haven't had the benefit of reading the KPMG report, so I can't give you a comprehensive answer. What I can say is that there was an internal audit, there was a criminal investigation, there was an internal investigation, followed by the Auditor General. I would expect that among those four forums they would get to the bottom of the issues that were there to investigate.

But having said that, I haven't seen the KPMG report, so my answer can only go as far as that.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lake.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in my opening remarks regarding the motion we adopted at this committee that Superintendent Macaulay and Staff Sergeant Frizzell make a presentation to us, I think I asked and got confirmation from the commissioner that they have access to all the files. Can I get the commissioner's assurance that they would have access to the files in order to make that presentation to the committee?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Anything that's humanly or legally possible will be done for this presentation.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

On a point of order, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

For further clarity, just before the conclusion of our last meeting, I had requested that Assistant Commissioner Bruce Rogerson and Chief Superintendent Doug Lang appear on Monday. They're referenced in the documents that were tabled a while ago, the e-mail exchange. They probably would not have to appear for very long before the committee. As Mr. Lake was trying to give an opportunity for full information and disclosure, I noticed that Chief Superintendent Doug Lang was not on the list for Monday. I would like this committee to confirm that Chief Superintendent Doug Lang will be there as well, especially considering that Deputy Commissioner Barb George will be appearing before us and that it's relevant to her testimony.