Public Accounts Committee on April 25th, 2007

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Did Mr. Ewanovich, in his position, have the authority to start bypassing and going around Treasury Board guidelines when it came to making changes to how the insurance administration fund was being altered? Did he have authority at his level?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Not at all. I don't know of anybody in our organization who has authority to go around Treasury Board guidelines.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

But for him to do that, he would have to have had discussions. How many levels are above Mr. Ewanovich in your organization?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

The commissioner is above him.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

After Mr. Ewanovich, it's Commissioner Zaccardelli.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

That's right.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

No one would have the ability to go around Treasury Board guidelines on their own, so Mr. Ewanovich had to have been in collusion or something with someone else to decide that they were going to start going around the Treasury Board guidelines. He wouldn't have just decided to do this on his own.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I believe the audit report and a number of other inquiries into that found that people who worked with him--Mr. Dominic Crupi, etc.--facilitated that to happen.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

On the issue in and around Mr. Crupi, I found it quite astounding that people who were negligent in their duties in one form or the other were able to be suspended with pay. Is that the normal course of action for people who are looking at some disciplinary action? Do they all get suspended with pay?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

It's a very controversial issue within the RCMP. People feel that if you're under investigation...there's a fine line between being under investigation and the evidence being so unequivocal in the first instance that you would be suspended without pay. In a lot of cases, at the end of the investigation you look back and think, yes, you were absolutely right, this person was guilty of what they were alleged to have done, but it takes the investigation for that to be found.

So in situations like that, it's not unusual in the RCMP for people to be suspended with pay. People get suspended without pay for kinds of criminal activity that are obvious, abhorrent, and beyond what any taxpayer would be able to tolerate in the situation. I'm talking about child molesting and those kinds of things.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Ms. Sgro.

Mr. Sweet, you have seven minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Assistant Commissioner LaFosse, you've worked with Chief Superintendent Macaulay, and certainly you know the reputation of Staff Sergeant Frizzell. Deputy Commissioner George had made several statements regarding their capacity.

My first question is, would Chief Superintendent Macaulay be the one who would withhold evidence regarding something that would be inappropriate or criminal for one year?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

In my view, no, absolutely not.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

As for Staff Sergeant Frizzell, Barbara George said that he was a person who was investigating without understanding the intricacies of the matters being investigated and that he was using highly inappropriate interview tactics. Would that be something that you would know to be characteristic of Staff Sergeant Frizzell?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

My work with Staff Sergeant Frizzell was on a project that was dealing with the mission vision values of the organization in 1995. It wasn't in an investigative capacity, so it would be unfair to comment.

I know Staff Sergeant Frizzell personally. I hold him in high regard, and I'd have no difficulty today in assigning him to another investigation if I were so inclined.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Maybe I will ask one more question.

We actually had the tape played of a phone message that he had left. It was kind of a baited message on a voice mail in order to extract information, and of course, he was involved in an investigation. Would you call that kind of tactic inappropriate for an investigating officer?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

That tape is the only portion that I'm aware of in that entire investigation, so I want to temper that by saying that is the only portion.

To me, listening to it or reading it, that is a tactic that any investigator would use. I'm a cop. I'm a police officer, and those types of tactics, to me, would be acceptable.

Again, that's the only portion that I'm aware of.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

So with everything that you've witnessed or heard, these two fine gentlemen are professionals.

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

Yes, sir, absolutely.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Commissioner Busson, is there anything you have unearthed at all to substantiate the claim that Chief Superintendent Macaulay purposely withheld evidence regarding the pension or insurance money?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

No, and I'll volunteer that I don't know Fraser personally, but he had worked in British Columbia before, and when I worked there he was very highly regarded for when he had worked there. It came as a surprise to me as well.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Could you tell me, are you aware of even one negative stroke on Sergeant Frizzell's personnel record?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I haven't seen his personnel record.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay. I will leave that there.