Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Perhaps to clarify that, I'm going to get the clerk to get it from you, and he will make copies of it.
3:40 p.m.
Commr Beverley Busson
My executive officer has it, if I could locate him in the room.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
We may have it here. I've just never seen it, that's all.
Can you just give us a minute before we continue?
Okay, then. Thank you very much.
We'll get you a copy of that.
We're going to start with the first round. I understand they don't have opening statements.... They do? They do. We were told no before, but if you do, please go ahead.
3:45 p.m.
A/Commr Darrell LaFosse
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
By way of introduction, I am currently privileged to be the assistant commissioner in charge of provincial and territorial policing, or community, contract and aboriginal policing--CCAPS, as we call it. I am posted here in Ottawa at our national headquarters.
I understand that I am here to possibly bring some clarity around the matter of Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell's transfer from his temporary duty back to his original duties within my area of responsibility.
By way of context, I have to go back to 1995 when I first met Staff Sergeant Frizzell. At that time, we were both posted to E Division, British Columbia. Staff Frizzell was as a constable at the Nanaimo detachment, I believe, and I was a newly commissioned officer at our divisional headquarters. Including my regular duties as the executive officer to the deputy commissioner, Pacific region, I was asked to participate in a project that saw me collaborate with four other members, including Staff Sergeant Frizzell.
Over the years between my departure from British Columbia in 1997 for Nova Scotia and his arrival in Ottawa in 2003, we would run into each other periodically. But we did not work together.
While in my current role, I learned that Staff Sergeant Frizzell had competed for and won a promotional transfer from British Columbia to sergeant in the operational policy section in my area. I was pleased because I was aware of his abilities and knew that he would be a good fit for the operations in that section.
After his arrival in December 2003, I received a telephone call from Assistant Commissioner Dave Gork, indicating that he had been tasked with finding resources for an investigation and asked if I could contribute one regular member to the team. I spoke with my management staff and Sergeant—his rank at the time—Frizzell's name surfaced, as he was fresh from the field and had the recency and skills to fit the requirement. Sergeant Frizzell was assigned to the investigational team during April 2004. I was never given details of the investigation, nor was I particularly interested.
Please understand that regular members, by their very nature, are moved from task to task as the need arises. His move to this project was perfectly natural.
On June 15, 2005, I received a penned note from then Assistant Commissioner George. I do not have a copy of that note but recall that it confused me considerably. I must point out that upon reading the document, even partway through, it was evident to me that she was upset with Sergeant Frizzell and wanted his actions on the investigation addressed. I cannot be more specific on the contents of the note, simply because I dismissed any possibility of my involvement or contact with Sergeant Frizzell, because he didn't work in my area any longer.
Assistant Commissioner George's note prompted me to immediately write the following e-mail:
Subject: Your penned note. Pls give me a call on your note...Mike has not worked here in over a year, matter of fact we are staffing his position.
I signed it “Darrell (Still Confused)”.
As a result of my e-mail, Assistant Commissioner George called me. It was a very short phone call lasting no more than a minute. It was clear to me that she was very upset with the actions of Sergeant Frizzell and in fact wanted him removed from his assigned duties.
I quickly told her that he was not my responsibility, and she should call either Assistant Commissioner Rogerson or Assistant Commissioner Gork.
We ended the call, and subsequent to my original e-mail, she sent me an e-mail stating that she now understood and would communicate with Assistant Commissioner Rogerson.
I then composed a short message to her asking the following: “Want your note back?” She responded with words to this effect: no, please don't leave the note lying around, and she would compose another note to Assistant Commissioner Rogerson.
From that telephone call, I walked into the office of Chief Superintendent Macaulay, who works in my shop, and said the words to this effect: You won't believe who just called; Barb wants Mike removed. I don't recall Chief Superintendent Macaulay's reaction or the discussion that followed.
I ask that the committee members understand that at the time, the telephone call had no bearing whatsoever on my operations and in fact only touched on a member who at one time had worked in my area. Any discipline or guidance would not have been my responsibility, and in fact I had no reason to question the legitimacy of her concerns.
In short, once I pointed Assistant Commissioner George in the right direction to the appropriate supervisor, I completely dismissed the note or telephone call.
In closing, I must point out that my total contact with Deputy Commissioner George on this matter did not last longer than one minute. I simply pointed her in the appropriate direction to voice her concerns. At the time, it seemed a simple question of her believing that Staff Sergeant Frizzell was still my responsibility. When I explained that fact to her, she accepted the answer and I believe telephoned either Assistant Commissioner Rogerson or Gork. I had no idea, then or now, whether her concerns were founded or not.
Thank you very much.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Assistant Commissioner LaFosse.
I understand, Mr. Loeppky, you have a brief opening statement.
3:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I apologize that it's not before this committee. I sent it in about a week ago, so it's obviously in the system. But my comments are brief.
I appear before you today as a retired member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I would like to provide a very brief overview of my service in the RCMP for the benefit of the committee members, so that my role is clearly understood. I joined the RCMP in 1972 and spent the first 18 years in various assignments in British Columbia. I was then transferred to Ottawa as one of the security officers responsible for the protection of the Governor General.
Following a variety of other assignments in Ottawa, I was transferred to New Brunswick, as the officer in charge of criminal operations, in 1996. I then became the commanding officer in charge of New Brunswick until 1999, when I was moved back to Ottawa in charge of human resources, a position I held until the fall of 2000.
In October 2000 I was appointed to the position of deputy commissioner responsible for operations. This included six unique operational areas, which were as follows: community, contract and aboriginal policing—that's one unit—criminal intelligence; Criminal Intelligence Service Canada; federal policing; protective operations; and technical operations.
In addition to internal responsibilities I represented the force on numerous national and international organizations, such as the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, and intergovernmental committees focusing on public safety.
I retired from the RCMP, my last day of work being June 17, 2005, and I currently live in British Columbia.
Thank you.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Chairman, I believe Mr. Loeppky said that he submitted his statement in writing a week ago to the clerk. I wonder why we don't have it. And of course there's a letter dated March 1 from the commissioner, and we're just now getting that. I wonder if perhaps you would check to make sure our administration is up to speed.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Mr. Williams,I believe, first of all, that the letter has been circulated before. Everyone has it. It is difficult to keep track, and we talked about this before.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
We're developing a binder.
As to the opening statement of Mr. Loeppky, perhaps I'll ask the clerk.
3:50 p.m.
The Clerk
Yes.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
It has no name—nothing—on it. We should have had this properly distributed.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Your point is well taken.
We're going to start a round of seven minutes. Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner, retired officer Garry Loeppky, and Assistant Commissioner Darrell LaFosse.
Assistant Commissioner LaFosse, in your opening statement you basically answered a few of the questions I had been intending to put to you. You were unequivocal that although your communication was short—you specified it was about a minute—it was absolutely clear what the communications intent from Deputy Commissioner George to you was. The error she committed was assuming that you were responsible for Staff Sergeant Frizzell.
My question then becomes this. You made a very clear statement, and in my questioning of Deputy Commissioner George I clearly asked questions surrounding the removal of Mr. Frizzell, to which she replied unequivocally. She made it absolutely clear she had nothing whatsoever to do with the removal of Mr. Frizzell and then afterwards, in her testimony, went even further in saying that she had heard something about its having to do with health reasons. Did you hear, watch, or perhaps read the transcripts of that public accounts committee meeting? What was your reaction? What did you say after seeing Deputy Commissioner George's statements when she was asked these questions?
3:55 p.m.
A/Commr Darrell LaFosse
Yes, I did have occasion to read what's referred to as the blues, and that particular portion was sitting on my desk a morning or two after the original testimony. I read that portion of the testimony, and shortly after that I bumped into Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay. And my question to him, rhetorically, was, “Why would she lie?”
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
Assistant Commissioner LaFosse, could you table the e-mails you referenced? And thank you so much for that testimony.
Was there something else you wished to add?
3:55 p.m.
A/Commr Darrell LaFosse
No, not at all. The only e-mails I have are my e-mails to Deputy Commissioner George. I do not have her responses. I've learned of those responses through the internal investigation that's being conducted. But I do have my e-mail messages.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
It couldn't be clearer, so I guess I'll move on to Mr. Loeppky.
Mr. Loeppky, discussing the hiring of Mr. Jim Ewanovich with former Commissioner Zaccardelli, did you discuss his being hired and any of the issues? He was, from what I understand at that time, a found harasser. Is that an issue that was discussed with the former commissioner?
3:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, that was an issue following the selection process. I believe it was during the updating of the security clearance that Mr. Ewanovich made a comment to an individual. That was brought to our attention and an investigation was undertaken. It was subsequently brought to the attention of the commissioner, who ultimately made the decision with respect to that complaint, and Mr. Ewanovich was hired subsequent to that.