Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
I do not recall the specifics of each contract; however, all of them stated what the company had to do, what had to be delivered, and the length of the contract.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
We are talking about contracts worth $6,243,000, and you—?
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
No, the total value of the contracts awarded for the NCPC, the National Compensation Policy Centre, following a Consulting and Audit Canada call to tender. You were the project manager from April 2002 to September 2003, when 30 of these 31 contracts were awarded, and you cannot remember any details. At least give us an example.
As an Individual
Okay, I will give an example: we needed people to carry out analysis and data cleanup. That is just one example, but I do not recall the details of each contract. As I have already said, I was responsible for more than 1,000 contracts. I do not remember the specific details of each contract.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
It was for the RCMP, for the pension system. It was always the same issue.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Were the contracts you managed always related to the RCMP pension and insurance plan?
As an Individual
Yes, they were related to the NCPC project, the National Compensation Policy Centre.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Gauvin, earlier, my colleague Mr. Roy asked you a question, and you responded that, on February 21st, funds had been spent on work of little or no value. Perhaps I misunderstood but I'd like to know: when someone doesn't remember the exact details of contracts, the nature of such contracts and you say that work of little value was done, can we draw a connection between the two? Otherwise, to what were you referring?
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
What the Auditor General said in her report was that when the RCMP went to Consulting and Audit Canada, perhaps the alternative would have been to do the work themselves. In other words, the RCMP should have done contracting direct.
She didn't say there was no value; she said little or no value. Basically what that means is that if the RCMP had done all this work, it still would have cost some money, because you have to get people to do this. The fact is they went to Consulting and Audit Canada, who are specialists.
In the RCMP, since I've been there, we recommend that people go through Public Works and Government Services Canada. That's because it's a large organization and it has a lot of pressures. People want things fast. They have criminal investigations and drug raids, etc., and you need whatever you need.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
I am sorry, Mr. Gauvin, but you are saying that, instead of awarding contracts, the RCMP could have done the same thing. That's what you just said. When we talk about work of little or no value, this means that contracts were awarded for no reason. That's what this means. If the work had no value, for whom has it no value?
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
No, I don't agree at all. This does not mean that the contracts had no value. What the Auditor General said was that she disagreed with the 15% payment to CAC for granting the contracts. She didn't necessarily say that the contracts weren't good, but rather that she disagreed with the RCMP paying a 15% commission. But that is how things work at CAC.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Thank you.
I want to start with Mr. Marshall, if I could. Was the Prime Minister of the day briefed on this file, and when? Could you could start with that?
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
I'm not aware if he was briefed. We did brief the Privy Council Office, though.
Conservative
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
The briefing to the Privy Council Office took place quite early; I'll just get you the date. Maybe Mr. Minto can help me.
I'll find you the date. It's quite early in the process.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Okay. Were the Treasury Board president and the public safety minister briefed on this as well?
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
The Treasury Board Secretariat was briefed. We briefed the Comptroller General's office and the secretary of the board, but we don't know whether they briefed up to their minister. In the public safety situation, again, we didn't brief them at Public Works.
Conservative
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
We didn't brief the commissioner specifically, although there was a lot of contact between the internal audit of CAC and the investigators on this file, the people the RCMP was using to investigate it.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
It's fair to suggest that he would have known, probably.
