Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:20 p.m.
As an Individual
At the beginning, sir, to my wife, but not to my children. They were 12 and 13 years old, sir.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Did your children understand their position in the company?
6:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Sir, they were partners of a corporation, with their names as shareholders. They were 12 and 13 years old. They didn't speak business; they spoke only about soccer and hockey.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
They were 13 or 14, so it never came up around the kitchen table, the dinner table?
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay. You must be very proud of your adolescent children to have such a tremendous understanding of conflict of interest and blind trust.
I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Sweet.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Marshall, my colleague Mr. Fitzpatrick asked two former cabinet ministers.... And you've just given us evidence that you briefed Minister Brison, as well as the PCO, and they were asked specifically if they had any knowledge about a forensic audit that was coming regarding Mr. Smith and Mr. Brazeau. They told this committee that they had no knowledge of an audit of this gravity, and I find that surprising, if the PCO was briefed. Could you please reconfirm that? What date was the PCO briefed?
6:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
I will check and let you know. The PCO was briefed as early as April 13, 2005.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
6:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Yes. I know that the Office of the Comptroller General, which is in the Treasury Board Secretariat and deals with audit matters, and so on, would have been briefed—verbally certainly—before that. I have a note that certainly by June 2005, the Treasury Board Secretariat was briefed.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Marshall, did you have any meetings with the President of the Treasury Board regarding this?
6:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
No, I didn't meet with him personally.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
But the staff inside the Treasury Board were all briefed.
6:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Yes.
The President of the Treasury Board would have been involved in discussions sometime before October 2005, because when he announced the new policy on internal audit, there was a reference to separating out auditing from consulting at CAC. So in order to make such an announcement, he would have had to have been given some rationale, and so on. So in that sense, he would have been involved, but I don't know to what extent he was told.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Now, when you say “rationale”, was it to the scope of the investigation?
6:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
No, I'm speculating. His staff would have said to him, look, these guys at Public Works want to separate this out, they're not happy, and so on. Now, whether he was told a lot more about the investigation, that I don't know. I didn't personally brief him.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
It's okay, because we have him on record saying that he had absolutely no knowledge of it, and I find that very surprising, with the gravity of this.
Mr. Brazeau, you mentioned that people would come to you and ask if you had someone who would build a website for them, etc., and it was your job to go and find them. I find that would be business as usual. But do you not find it entirely different if someone comes to you and says, “I need to have a website built, and by the way, I know the person I want to hire. Could you please make sure you look after that?” Do you not find a difference between those two scenarios?
6:25 p.m.
As an Individual
As I said, I followed the CAC rules at that time, and that's all I have to say on that.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I think you would have been familiar with the government's position, that the contractor needs to “stand the test of public scrutiny in matters of prudence and probity, facilitate access, encourage competition, and reflect fairness in the spending of public funds”.
6:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Sir, I was not a contracting officer. I never had five seconds of training in procurement. I was the salesman. I was the one selling CAC services.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You were selling CAC services, but in fact you were referring placement to contractors because you were referring--
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You were referring consultants to contractors so they could bid. That's much more than sales.
6:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Sir, I was following the rules at that time. We were allowed to do that. Clients were allowed to have the preferred bidder on the list. As Mr. McEvoy testified, it was accepted practice by CAC.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Smith, I'm going to give you a chance once more--I've already asked you this. Just reading again into the record here that government contracting shall be conducted in a manner that will “stand the test of public scrutiny in matters of prudence and probity, facilitate access, encourage competition, and reflect fairness in the spending of public funds”, do you think what you did actually encouraged competition and facilitated access?