Evidence of meeting #62 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Approximately how much earlier had he contacted you?
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Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
I have one final question. Was he impolite during his first contact with you?
5:10 p.m.
Chief Risk Officer, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I'm sorry to interrupt here, but I want to clarify one small topic.
When Mr. Williams was questioning Mr. Brazeau a short time ago, Mr. Brazeau said a couple of times that these were the rules in CAC, and this was how they did business.
It's true that CAC was a special operating agency, but all government contracting is done under the government contract regulations or Treasury Board policy. The policy states, among other things, “that government contracting shall be conducted in a manner that will stand the test of public scrutiny in matters of prudence and probity; facilitate access; encourage competition; and reflect fairness in the spending of public funds”. There was no exemption from that policy for CAC or anybody in CAC.
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Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I think it's pretty clear from the evidence we've heard over the last couple of weeks that that was not the case in CAC.
Mr. Poilievre.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Mr. Koziol, in the Ottawa Police Service's report summary of its investigation, it says you believed, with regard to the pension fund administration, that the business case for outsourcing did not involve a full analysis. Is that correct?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
We did not do as thorough a business case as could have been done under the circumstances.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
On the costs you used in the analysis in the business case, did they come from Morneau Sobeco? That's what it says in the Ottawa police investigation report.
June 4th, 2007 / 5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
That was my understanding, yes, for the outsourcing costs.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Who directed you to use Morneau Sobeco's numbers in your business case?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I was working together with Mr. Casey and Mr. Crupi at the time.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So who directed you to use Morneau Sobeco's numbers in the business case?
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As an Individual
As the manager as the time, that would have been Mr. Crupi.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Mr. Crupi.
Then Morneau Sobeco went on to win the bid for which its numbers had been used in the business case. Is that right?
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Were other potential bidders given the opportunity to provide numbers for that business case?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
There was a visit to Towers Perrin, but I do not believe they provided numbers. The process was a full RFP.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Yes, but that RFP would have been somewhat related to the business case, would it not?
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As an Individual
No. The RFP basically provides the requirements, and the companies bidding provide financial proposals.
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Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Right, and all of that emanates from the original business case. That's what the business case does--it lays out a proposition.
Were the costs used in the business case by Morneau Sobeco also used to assess the RFP?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
As evaluators, we looked at the technical solution. Public Works did the financial evaluation.
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Conservative