Evidence of meeting #8 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was space.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is the only reason they weren't sitting together at the table together last time was because Ms. Bloodworth couldn't be here, so....
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I realize that, Mr. Lake, but again, we had ample opportunity to....
Would Mr. Wiersema say anything different from what he said last week?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
So there's no point in coming back, but again I'm bound by the rules of the committee.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I will move, Mr. Chairman, that we invite Mr. Wiersema to the table.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Okay. That is a motion, which is relevant to the proceedings.
(Motion agreed to)
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Of course, advise him of the oath thing and all that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I think Mr. Wiersema has already been advised of that, Mr. Williams. He was in the room.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Wiersema, you have heard the testimony of Ms. Bloodworth, who said you were at the meeting regarding the supplementary estimates, or whether there should be some regarding the accounting treatment of this amount of money, and she says you didn't speak up. What do you say?
John Wiersema Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Chairman, if I may, I'd like to make a couple of comments.
Firstly, Mr. Pigeon, whose opinion you now have, refers to an interdepartmental meeting held on February 5. I don't believe I was in attendance at that meeting. I believe I was in attendance at a subsequent meeting that, as indicated in the Auditor General's report, was held later in February, approximately sometime in the middle of February. So I wasn't involved in the initial meeting at which Mr. Pigeon's opinion was requested.
At the subsequent meeting, as I indicated in my testimony at the last hearing, Mr. Chairman, I believe my position on the matter was the reason the meeting was called--the fact that I was not comfortable with the position that was being proposed to not seek supplementary estimates. Mr. Chairman, I believe my position was known. It was clear to me, as I indicated in my last testimony, that the discussion at that meeting was the discussion of the political considerations of seeking supplementary estimates.
Indeed, it is with some trepidation that I say this. Early in the meeting Madam Bloodworth indicated that she was unable to recommend that the minister seek supplementary estimates because it would have implications for the pending federal election, which was the 2004 election. So at that point it was clear to me that political considerations were the determining factor in that meeting, and I didn't feel it was necessary to restate my position. My view was not going to carry the day.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Madam Bloodworth, did you invoke political considerations for your decision?
Former Deputy Minister, Public Safety Emergency Preparedness Canada, As an Individual
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
There were two legal opinions on this issue. There was a long one by Mr. Pigeon, and there seems to have been a shorter one by Mr. Yvon Besner on February 3, saying that you couldn't avoid appropriations. How many legal opinions do you need, or do you just go and get the one that you like?
Former Deputy Minister, Public Safety Emergency Preparedness Canada, As an Individual
Well, I think I've already answered that, Mr. Chairman.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I asked you a question. How many do you need, or do you keep asking to get one that you like?
Former Deputy Minister, Public Safety Emergency Preparedness Canada, As an Individual
I ask for the ones I believe I need.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Judd, did you ever discuss this with your political masters—ministers and so on?
Former Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, As an Individual
I certainly discussed the Firearms Centre generally, I think, in the context of the review by then Minister Guarnieri. The review had been commissioned around the turn of the year. But I do not recall discussing this issue with a minister, no.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Is that “No, I didn't, or “Perhaps I did, but I don't recall”?
Former Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, As an Individual
No, I do not recall discussing it with the minister.
Conservative
Former Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, As an Individual
I have no recollection of any discussion with the minister about this issue.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
It seems, Mr. Chairman, that there was some political involvement here, in my perception. Everybody's skating around it, but I really can't understand why they are so reluctant...or why it was so difficult.
Mr. Wiersema, let me just ask you a simple question. I think it's a simple question. You're an accountant, you deal with these matters all day long, and you were the acting accountant for the Government of Canada as the Comptroller General. Did you see this as a complex, difficult decision?
