Public Accounts Committee on June 8th, 2006

[Jim Judd, Former Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, As an Individual]

No, I don't recall being there.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

How many departments were at the meeting?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

It was my own department, myself, the Firearms Centre, Public Works, and the Treasury Board represented by Ms. Cartwright and some of her staff, I believe, and Mr. Wiersema, who was also, I guess, technically part of the Treasury Board, but the acting comptroller general at the time, and I think someone from his staff. Each of them had some staff, but those were the senior—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And you were having a serious problem about this particular issue of how to charge this $23 million for the gun registry's—let's call it, for simple terms—overrun. Was that the debate, about whether this should be charged against an appropriation or deferred to the next year? Was that the discussion?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

The discussion was whether or not we should change the accounting treatment from what it had been the year before.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Twice I think you have said you're not an accountant; you're a lawyer.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

That's right.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This is an accounting business. Mr. Wiersema, the acting comptroller general, the chief accountant of the Government of Canada, was there. His opinion didn't count; you went to another lawyer. Why did you go to a lawyer for an accounting answer?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Mr. Wiersema was there because he was the acting comptroller general.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I know he was there, so why didn't you defer to him?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Let the witness answer the question. She is not giving rambling answers.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

My question was quite simple: why didn't you take the advice of the chief accountant of the Government of Canada, Mr. Wiersema?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

He didn't give any advice at that meeting.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

He certainly gave advice later on, in writing.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Not to me.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I thought he wrote to you. No, he wrote to Mr. Pigeon, a letter that wasn't delivered.

So you felt lawyers are more informed than accountants on accounting issues?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No. I had the meeting because at the time, if you look at Mr. Pigeon's opinion, he had talked to a number of different people already. He had formed some preliminary views, and I felt it was important—because I knew the issue was complicated and that more than lawyers would have views on it—that all those I could determine might have some views that should be weighed be there.

So the meeting was held, and Mr. Pigeon, as I recall, outlined the state of his thinking at that time. Then there was an opportunity for anyone who had any views or things he should consider, or any contrary views, to express them.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Wiersema was at the meeting and he had no point of view to offer?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

He said nothing.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

He said nothing. Okay.

Now, you're a deputy minister, and again I'm reading from the letter from Mr. Pigeon to you, continuing: “I was asked to examine from a legal point of view”—not an accounting point of view—“and to come to a conclusion before noon the next day on the question as to what are the amounts that need to be recorded as a charge against the appropriation available...”.

Now, as a lawyer and as the deputy minister, I am led to believe there were no written instructions given to the Department of Justice to request a legal opinion.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Is that normal practice for a lawyer, Ms. Bloodworth?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

It's certainly not unusual.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Not unusual?

Now, you asked—if his verbal instructions were properly received—“as to what are the amounts that need to be recorded as a charge against the appropriation”. He didn't give a philosophical answer; he zeroed right in on this one particular point of $23 million, and then came up with a point, a highly technical rationale, to say “not appropriate”.

The legal point of view you requested was a broad-based question “as to what are the amounts needed to be recorded”? So he didn't give you what you asked for. Why? Why did you accept this?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I guess I don't agree he didn't give me what I asked for. I'm not sure I understand the question.