Public Accounts Committee on June 8th, 2006

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I said I am a lawyer by profession. I first started as a lawyer with the Canadian Transport Commission, which changed names a few times, but I was there for about 10 years. I then moved to the Privy Council Office, where I was assistant secretary of legislation and house planning, and counsel; and then I became deputy clerk, security and intelligence, and counsel, for the Privy Council Office. I then moved to become associate deputy minister of transport, then Deputy Minister of Transport. I was there for five and a half years, and then I was Deputy Minister of National Defence for a couple of years, and since then have been Deputy Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness for almost two and a half years.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

So you have a wealth of experience, based on what you've just highlighted there.

Based on your experience, when you encountered the situation, you felt it was a complex situation; hence, you asked for legal advice, right? Based on your experience in the past, you realized it was something that required legal advice. In fact, you indicated in your earlier remarks that there was a notion to change the status quo, in terms of the accounting aspect, so you wanted to see what the various options were, based genuinely on the complexity of the issue, and that's why you asked for legal advice.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

It was a complex issue. I didn't start by seeking legal advice; I started by asking those involved questions about what the issue was and why we were proposing change. It was after those discussions that I concluded that a legal opinion would be helpful. However, before asking for a legal opinion, I did talk with Mr. Baker, who was the person accountable for the money, and he didn't have any objection, so I then went ahead and did that.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

During those discussions, were there any discussions with political entities? Was there any discussion with the ministers at that time?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Not at that time. As I said, there may have been a brief discussion with the minister's chief of staff, just to the effect of whether all the options had been looked at.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

So there was no political interference whatsoever at that time?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No—or at any other time, for that matter.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Once you had those discussions, you asked for legal advice. In your opinion, you felt that was the best course of action, based on the complex nature of the accounting. Is that correct?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Not just the accounting, but the whole issue, yes.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

The whole issue itself.

Then you indicated here that the reason for the accounting was the context of this problem, or this issue, was that there was this notion that there might be need for supplementary estimates. That's what was really driving the concerns--was there a need for a supplementary estimate, and was that the subsequent fallout from the accounting? So there was an accounting component to it, and the fallout from that would be that if we were to book in a certain method, there would be a need for supplementary estimates. Is that fair?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

If the decision had been made to change the accounting treatment, the result would have been that supplementary appropriations would have been required, yes.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

That was phase two. That was not part of the initial discussion. Or was that part of the initial discussion?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Well, it was intimately wrapped up with it. I'm not sure you can distinguish the two.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Okay, so it was all continuous at one time.

Basically, as indicated by the members opposite, there was no crisis, but this was just simply a complex issue that required, in your opinion, based on the discussions that took place, legal advice that you sought. Is that correct? There was no crisis per se.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

There was no crisis, but there was certainly a need to proceed expeditiously because the deadline for supplementary estimates, should it be decided that was the route to go, was very shortly thereafter--I don't know which date it was, but it was only a few days after.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Okay. So it was complex, but there was no crisis, and there was no political interference whatsoever.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much. That's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Are you through, Mr. Bains?

Okay, Mr. Williams, we're treating you well today.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm doing well today, Mr. Chair. Thank you again.

Ms. Bloodworth, going back to this meeting regarding the accounting treatment, Mr. Wiersema was there, and yet you said he didn't say anything. This is, presumably, a serious issue regarding accounting and not lawyers, because, as you said, you're not an accountant and you needed somebody else's opinion. Did you say Mr. Wiersema said nothing?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

He said nothing that I can recall at all, and certainly nothing of any substance.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I would like you to stop the clock. I would like to bring Mr. Wiersema forward, since he's in the crowd, and see what he has today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Williams, Mr. Wiersema already testified at the hearing.

I would prefer to deal with that after, if we want to recall Mr. Wiersema, and that's the view of the committee. We're not going to call witnesses back and forth in the middle of a hearing.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

We've done it before, Mr. Chairman. We've brought witnesses forward many times.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Why don't we leave it until after this?