Evidence of meeting #21 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreements.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ronnie Campbell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Michael Wernick  Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Terry Sewell  Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michel Roy  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Claims and Indian Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I call the meeting to order. I want to welcome everyone, especially the witnesses here today.

The orders of the day deal with chapter 3, on the Inuvialuit Final Agreement, of the October 2007 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.

From the Office of the Auditor General we have assistant auditor Ronnie Campbell, and principal Frank Barrett. Welcome.

From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development we have the deputy minister and accounting officer Michael Wernick. He's accompanied by Michel Roy, the senior assistant deputy minister, claims and Indian government; and Terry Sewell, director general, implementation branch.

I want to again extend to each and every one of you a very warm welcome to the committee.

I understand, Mr. Campbell, you have an opening statement. I'll turn the meeting over to you.

11:05 a.m.

Ronnie Campbell Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity to present the results of our audit of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement from chapter 3 of the Auditor General's October 2007 report. I am accompanied by Frank Barrett, who is the principal responsible for this audit.

The Inuvialuit Final Agreement is one of Canada's first comprehensive land claim agreements. When it was signed in 1984 it was the first such agreement to be signed north of the 60th parallel, and is only the third comprehensive land claim agreement to be finalized in Canada. As with all comprehensive land claim agreements, the Inuvialuit Final Agreement is protected by the Constitution.

Modern comprehensive land claim agreements are complex and address the roles, responsibilities, and obligations of each party as well as other things, such as a land transfer and cash settlement. Land claim agreements are not designed to end relationships between governments and the aboriginal groups; they are designed to change those relationships.

The principle objectives of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement are to: preserve the Inuvialuit cultural identity and values within a changing northern society; enable the Inuvialuit to be equal and meaningful participants in the northern and national economy and society; and protect and preserve Arctic wildlife, environment, and biological productivity.

The Inuvialuit Final Agreement includes more than 80 provisions, under which the federal government is obligated to take certain actions or participate in certain activities. More than three quarters of these obligations are ongoing, such as regular participation on boards and committees.

We audited federal activities related to 29 of Canada's obligations that we deemed important for fulfilling the agreement. We also examined how Indian and Northern Affairs Canada—the lead federal organization—planned for, carried out, and monitored the implementation of Canada's obligations under the agreement. Finally, we assessed whether, or how, INAC monitored and reported on the extent to which the agreement's principles were realized.

We found that the federal government had not met some of its significant obligations. Often, this was because it had not established the necessary processes and procedures, or it had not identified who was responsible for certain actions.

For example, it had not yet established a process to remove restrictions on use called “encumbrances” from 13 parcels of Inuvialuit land that would transfer control and use of the land to the Inuvialuit. Furthermore, in 1984 INAC erroneously transferred land to the Inuvialuit that contained municipal infrastructure that belonged to the Government of the Northwest Territories and to Transport Canada. Our audit found that INAC had not established processes to reacquire these lands in exchange for other lands.

Some of the obligations are being met, Mr. Chairman. INAC has paid to the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation almost $170 million, over 14 years, according to the schedule set out in the agreement. Canada has transferred approximately 91,000 square kilometres to the Inuvialuit and created three national parks. Federal organizations have collaborated with joint management boards and with committees that were established under the agreement. They have also advised environmental screening and review bodies when requested to do so.

Mr. Chair, we found that the Department of Indian and Affairs, on top of not meeting specific obligations, still had not developed a strategy for how Canada would implement its responsibilities. This is 23 years after the agreement came into effect. We also found that INAC, the federal lead, has taken no action to ensure that progress towards achieving the principles of the agreement is monitored. During the audit, officials stated that they did not view this as the department's responsibility. As a result, the department does not have a comprehensive picture of progress of the three fundamental goals expressed in the agreement.

We made six recommendations. INAC agreed with all of them. When it responded to each one, INAC made various commitments, with specific timeframes, some of which were to be acted upon by March 2008. The committee may wish to invite INAC to table its action plan and explain what changes have been put in place to ensure it lives up to the commitments it made in response to our recommendations.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening statement. We would be happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Campbell.

We're now going to hear from Mr. Wernick, the accounting officer with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

Thank you very much, Mr. Wernick. The floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

Michael Wernick Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the invitation to appear before the committee today.

This is my third parliamentary committee appearance in about a month. I spoke recently to the Senate committee on aboriginal affairs on this very subject--the Inuvialuit agreement. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to address the findings and recommendations on implementation of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement contained in the Auditor General's October 2007 report.

First of all, I would like to thank the Auditor General for her report. I appreciate the diligent effort and careful study undertaken by the Auditor General and her staff, and I genuinely welcome their thoughtful recommendations.

We recognize the seriousness of the matters raised in the report. Any failure on our part to fully abide by the terms of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement not only undermines the relationship with this aboriginal community, but also diminishes the hard-won credibility of the federal government as it enters into negotiations on agreements with other aboriginal communities across Canada.

In her report, the Auditor General suggests six precise ways in which the department can completely fulfill its responsibilities under the Inuvialuit Final Agreement. The recommendations touch on key aspects of the agreement: land exchange, contracting, economic review, interdepartmental communication, overall implementation strategy, and performance measurement issues.

We are working and have been working in all these areas. Since the report was presented to the House, we have increased our efforts to address the concerns raised by the Auditor General, in order to fully implement the terms of the agreement.

We have been working on developing an action plan to ensure that we are on track, setting realistic and concrete deadlines to address the recommendations. We met with the staff of the Office of the Auditor General, and they provided us with some guidance on the appropriate form and language of an action plan following on our most recent audit and evaluation committee meeting, which was held on February 28.

My officials have provided me with an update on the department's response to the recommendations of the report since it was tabled, and we've made substantial progress even since then on a number of the items highlighted by the Auditor General. I'll just touch on a few of those, and then hopefully that will set the table for questions. I'll deal with them in order.

On land exchanges, accelerated work over the last few months has led to progress on the issue of the airports and the Pingo Canadian Landmark land exchanges. Negotiations with the Inuvialuit and the other federal parties are in fact now finalized and final approval of those parties is expected within the next six months.

This highlights one of the generic challenges for us, in that the department is not solely responsible for or capable of delivering implementation or in possession of all of the levers and tools. Some of those rest with other federal departments. As you may be aware from reading the report, the Government of Canada is the signatory to the agreements, and often this involves a range of federal government departments and other parties.

On contracting, for example, we've worked closely with the Treasury Board Secretariat and Public Works and Government Services Canada to ensure that contract practices across the government reflect our commitments as a government. An amendment will be finalized within the next fiscal year, and the systems to monitor compliance will be brought in line with the new policy.

With regard to economic reviews, we have provided funding to the Inuvialuit to assess the economic development opportunities and potential in each one of the six Inuvialuit communities. We recognize that successful aboriginal communities mean a more prosperous country for us all, and this practical community-based approach supports the objective.

Let me confirm that we continue to explore approaches to enable us to assess and report on a timely basis on land claims implementation activities and obligations, not just in the case of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement, but all of our land claims settlements across Canada.

Stronger accountability mechanisms for implementation of modern treaties—including multi-party implementation bodies, quarterly reporting, and audits, both internal and external, when required—are adding greater rigour into our work. To address recommendations of internal audits, we're improving the process we use for tracking implementation and we're producing a practical implementation handbook for staff. We've also conducted workshops to identify performance measures and indicators that will assess and report on the impact of our implementation activities, and all this is imbedded in a larger department-wide performance measurement framework.

The department's implementation branch, led by Mr. Sewell, who joins us here today, has led a series of discussions over the last few months with representatives of all the aboriginal signatories to modern treaties and with all other federal government partners to gain a greater understanding of implementation challenges and to make sure we work together on solutions.

Finally, an evaluation of the impact of modern land claims agreements is underway, starting in five communities in both the Northwest Territories and Quebec, and the evaluation results will be available later in the coming fiscal year.

These initiatives are clear proof of our commitment. Despite the obstacles we encounter we should not lose sight of the fact that the current land claims process works and that agreements are having—and will continue to have—a profound effect on the lives of members of aboriginal communities. By working together we will continue to make progress.

I would cite recent testimony of Chief Joe Linklater of the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation in the Yukon before your counterparts in the Senate committee on aboriginal peoples. I have an interesting and compelling quote from Chief Linklater in which he said, “I tell people all the time that these self-government agreements were not negotiated to resource ourselves. They were negotiated to give us the ability to look after ourselves and to be self-determining.”

Well, the ability to look after ourselves is what all Canadians want. I believe that the measures this department and other departments will be putting in place, have put in place, and will put in place to respond to the Auditor General's report will bring us much closer to that ultimate goal.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd be happy to take your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Wernick.

Today, colleagues, we have a couple of motions. I'm going to continue this meeting until a quarter to one, at which time I will deal with the two motions that are before the committee.

Mr. Hubbard, for seven minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a very old issue. I guess it was brought back to us as parliamentarians with the Auditor General's report. It seems to reflect that when you sign agreements, the Government of Canada doesn't always honour them.

Mr. Wernick, with the progress that this made--it's an agreement between our government here in Ottawa and people of a very distant part of our great Canadian nation--are the people of the territory complaining to our government that we're not honouring our commitments? I haven't read the Senate inquiry. Are the people in that area, the 3,500 or 3,600 people who live there, their leaders, complaining to the Government of Canada that we're not meeting our obligations?

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

I'm not quite sure how to answer that.

We have an ongoing relationship with the Inuvialuit leadership. Most of the agreement, in fact, takes on an ongoing government-to-government relationship with their lands corporation, their economic development corporation, and their political organizations, so they are constantly dealing with us with the issues facing the Inuvialuit communities.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

When you attempt to answer that question.... It must be a pretty straightforward question.

Are you getting correspondence? Are you getting calls? Are you getting concerns from the people of the area that we, as a government, are not meeting the obligations that we signed on to in that territory some 24 years ago?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

We have ongoing correspondence and relationship with the Inuvialuit people.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Are they dissatisfied with the position that the Government of Canada has taken in trying to meet our commitments?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

It's a question you should put to them.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

As the deputy minister, you can't tell us?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

We have an ongoing relationship with the Inuvialuit people about issues within and outside the agreement. You can characterize them as complaints. There are a number of implementation issues and a number of government-to-government relationships with the Inuvialuit people. I'm not going to put words in their mouth as to how they would put it. Of course, there are ongoing issues. It's a government-to-government relationship.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

It would seem, Mr. Chair, that maybe we're not hearing from enough witnesses. We're reading a report here that doesn't look very good in terms of the outstanding agreements we have. This is not the only one; it's probably the first. But we continue to make agreements. If we can't honour the agreements, why do we continue to pursue them?

May I just go a little further? The one with the Dene Nation was a big topic in terms of...actually, it went to Parliament and we passed a bill and have an act on the Dene Nation. But do we have other agreements where we're getting dissatisfaction in terms of what we...? If we're not honourable with our agreements.... It's almost unacceptable that we should negotiate agreements and not be able to fulfill the obligations that we offer to people, often people who don't have the same expertise in negotiation as we would have as a government agency.

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

I would have to take issue with your characterization.

An agreement is not on or off, fully implemented or fully not implemented. Parts of the agreement have been implemented, as the Auditor General noted, and parts of it have not, as we recognize.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Williams, on a point of order.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

I think the questions put by Mr. Hubbard are fairly straightforward, Mr. Chairman. This obfuscation by the deputy minister really is not getting us very far. These are simple questions. We're here as the Parliament of Canada to elicit information from the Government of Canada and find out what's going on over there. These evasive responses are really not that helpful.

If there's a problem, tell us there's a problem, and let's see if we can resolve the problem. That is why we're here. We're not here to throw the book at the department. We want information, and we're entitled to that information, Mr. Chairman.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'm inclined to agree with you, Mr. Williams. The report speaks for itself: there is a problem; there's no question of that. I find Mr. Hubbard's questions fairly simple and straightforward, and I urge the witness to answer them as best he can.

Go ahead, Mr. Wernick.

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

The issues in question are the issues identified in the Auditor General's report, the six I listed in my opening statement.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Mr. Campbell, in terms of your work on this file, you heard the deputy answer questions. Did you in your work deal with the people of that territory and their observations on what the Government of Canada has done in terms of that, I hope, very honoured commitment we made to them back in the early 1980s, culminating with the agreement in 1984? You visited the territory. You have talked to some of the communities. I believe there are one major and six minor communities there. Did your group meet with the people there and talk to Chief Linklater and so forth? What is his observation on this report and what was reported?

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Ronnie Campbell

Thank you.

Mr. Linklater is not part of the Inuvialuit group. But yes, I visited many of the Inuvialuit communities. Between me and my audit team I think we visited all but one of the communities. We did talk with the leadership of the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation. It's part of the methodology we use in the course of all our audits when we audit issues that affect first nations and aboriginal groups. We always make sure we understand the issues from their perspective, even though all our audit work is done for the Government of Canada, in this case the Department of Indian Affairs.

I would agree with Mr. Wernick that the best people to speak for the Inuvialuit would be the Inuvialuit themselves. I would hesitate to speak for them, but I think it would be fair to say that when we talked to them about doing the audit of the government's implementation of their agreement, they were not unhappy we were doing that. They did express some frustration at the length of time it was taking to get the agreement implemented.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Mr. Chair, I'm probably running out of time, but we talk about the lead department and we talk about the other departments. I would expect that the lead department finds the other departments are not making progress in terms of the need to meet their responsibilities. There would be documentation from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to others saying they should get on with the show. I would suspect correspondence must be coming back with some timetable when these obligations would be planned to be met.

Mr. Chair, could we ask to have some of that tabled? For example, with Transport Canada, which apparently is one of these departments, and there are others, could our clerk expect the government correspondence?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Hubbard, you could ask the question. A plan is supposed to be done by March of this year. It is March, and you may want to ask them if it's there. But if you're looking for all correspondence, that would be a very lengthy dossier.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

But just in terms of the airport business. There must be some reason why Transport Canada is holding that up. It would just give us some indication, Mr. Chair, of what is being done. Are people sitting on the file? Is it active? Is it continuing? Do we have deadlines for someone to meet their obligations?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Wernick.