Public Accounts Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Well, what's new is that it will be done, sir.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I presume they said that before too, Mr. Chairman, so I wouldn't consider that to be new.

Anyway, there's been some comment here....

By the way, just for my edification, Ms. Semaan, you're the assistant deputy minister of farm financial programs branch. Do you have an accounting designation?

[Nada Semaan]

No, I do not.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

One of the things we've heard about here today is the horrendous complexity for farmers. They're not accountants either; they're farmers. Numbers aren't their strength.

What is the accounting cost for farmers to prepare these CAIS programs? You collect all kinds of information and data, so I presume you've been collecting this as well.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

I don't know how much it costs for an accountant. That's information we don't have--what accountants charge.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But you collect a great amount of detailed information--the amount of feed, the amount of fertilizer, the amount of fuel, the amount of this, the amount of that, the rent, and utility payments. You collect all that. Why wouldn't you also collect the accounting costs, since we know they're onerous? Why wouldn't you collect this information, too, to find out how much this program is costing?

I did some simple numbers here. With $107 million to run your department and 150,000 applications, it costs you over $700 per application to process. But you don't know how much it costs a farmer to process.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

First of all, just for the record--and I would be happy to share this with the committee--the CAIS application form was six pages long and included very complicated information.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That's my point precisely.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Now, though, it is a one-page application form. We have revised it, and we have put that out.

I don't know if we can get the actual costs or if people would disclose that kind of information. I don't think you write on your tax form how much your accountant charged you. So I don't know if it's appropriate to ask them the question.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I beg to differ. Accounting costs per farm is a tax-deductible expense. They are right in there on the.... There's no big deal to put a line on the form to find out exactly what it's costing farmers, since we know it costs them a great deal to find out what it is.

Now, this is where I find this amateurish attitude by the department. They say, “We're okay. We don't worry about the farmers.” We've heard about this “Let's go after the overpayments, but don't worry about the underpayments.” We know this has been an extremely complex, onerous application for farmers, and yet you haven't bothered to find out what it's costing farmers. In some cases they fill out forms that generate nothing in return. Why?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

We'll examine the possibility of asking for that information, sir. We will look at it to see if we have it in the department. I am not aware of it.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. There are a lot of things we don't seem to be aware of in the department. Mr. Hubbard's question about what percentage is going to what percentage.... Like the agribusiness people--are they getting 90% of the money? This kind of information should be at your fingertips, I would have thought.

In terms of the conflict of interest, you mentioned in your opening statement, Madam Deputy Minister, that some people had been reporting this conflict. Did anybody do anything about it before the Auditor General pointed out to you that you shouldn't be doing this?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

That was in the Auditor General's report.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No. You indicated in your opening statement that you were aware people were working under the table or had a moonlighting business here. My question is, since you were aware before the Auditor General's report, hadn't you thought that maybe you should do something about this?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Absolutely, sir, and it wasn't done. That's why it's--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

It wasn't done.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

It wasn't done.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So they were reporting on a conflict of interest, and everybody said that was fine.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

I don't know if they said it was fine, but no action was taken.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Have you audited the returns that were prepared by these people in a conflict of interest?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

The five employees who--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

All the files that they prepared and submitted to generate returns--have you audited each and every one to find out if they were accurate?

[Nada Semaan]

Not each and every one, but we have reviewed some files.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Was it 10%, 50%, or 90%?

[Nada Semaan]

I couldn't give you an exact percentage.