Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2010

[John Wiersema]

Well, we would have no reason to do that, Mr. Chairman, if the government weren't pursuing audited departmental financial statements. If we're in the Department of Justice as part of the public accounts audit, we will do enough work to satisfy our obligations for the public accounts audit. We would have no reason to go off to do extra little fishing expeditions or other exploratory work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

Mr. Ralston, what is the size of the budget for your department?

[James Ralston]

Do you mean the Comptroller General's office? We have about 150 people. That's the size of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Would it be $100 million?

[James Ralston]

No, it's not that high. I think it's more in the order of about $25 million or $28 million or something like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

How did you come up with that figure of $300 million? It seems to me that when I divide that by 22, it comes out to about $14 million per department.

Is that what you did to come up with $300 million?

[James Ralston]

Maybe I'll ask Mr. Matthews to explain that process.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I believe that at the last session I described that it was not a scientific estimate. That figure was arrived at in consultation with the chief financial officers of the 22 departments. They came back and said that given their state of readiness, the documentation, and the systems upgrades they may require to move to a controls basis, that was their first guess at the number. There were some cautionary notes from one department that their number was not necessarily fulsome and that it was probably even higher than that.

But this was not a scientific exercise, let's be clear. The number--

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

I would have thought that if it was going to be unscientific, it would have come from somebody around this table. We're looking for more scientific or mathematically sound responses from somebody else in the department.

[Bill Matthews]

I just wanted to add that the number was split equally between systems investment and policies and procedures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

The Auditor General's department already has a budget of about $80 million. They used to have $100 million. And while they can do whatever they wish, more or less, they can do all of those things....

Mr. Wiersema, I know that you gave an answer here a moment ago, so I'll leave it with you.

Madam d'Auray wants to have an opportunity to respond to this.

You know, I'm looking at that same item that one of my colleagues mentioned, that the intent of government is to have departmental financial statements audited by the Office of the Auditor General of Canada. That's the stated intention of the Government of Canada.

Madam d'Auray, how come your department has a different policy?

[Michelle d'Auray]

The statement was a statement of intent. It wasn't a policy. The policy, in fact, has been approved by the Treasury Board ministers. It was approved in June. June 2010 was the policy on financial management. The policy on internal control was approved in April 2009. So those are policies that are, in fact, approved by the Treasury Board, and they are the policies of the government.

The intent at the time, the underlying objective, whether it was in 2004 or expressed again in 2007, was, in fact, to strengthen controls and strengthen the reliability of financial information. Audited statements were a means to an end. The end has never changed. The means by which we are achieving that end has shifted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

I'm sure to have an opportunity to pursue this more.

This committee room is going to be required by somebody else. That's lucky for some. I'm going to call the meeting to an end.

We'll adjourn the meeting, but I'm going to speak to a couple of colleagues regarding our steering committee tomorrow. I'll do that off-item.

Is there a motion for adjournment? Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.