Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transformation.
A video is available from Parliament.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I want to return to the $56 million. I'm not at all satisfied that this has been adequately accounted for in terms of what took place. Clearly I can't get an answer as to why the decision was made, because of previous responses, but I didn't hear even an attempt to give me an answer to my question of the collateral damage, the unintended consequences, of artificially cutting a budget that wasn't adequately replaced through savings. What damage has that done?
10:20 a.m.
President, Shared Services Canada
Mr. Chair, it has meant that we've had to reprioritize, invest less in different projects, and I think the data shows that to the largest extent, it's contributed to a slower rollout of the transformation initiatives themselves. That's one of the reasons there are delays. The investment in the transformation plan has not been as large as initially forecasted.
10:20 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
This is interesting. This is where we get into the bump up between the political and the bureaucratic. I didn't hear anybody here take ownership of that decision. If anything, I heard people saying to go somewhere else down the line to find an answer. We'll have to decide how we're going to wrestle with that as we're pulling together our report. It looks like it was an artificial pressure from outside governance and management, and enough that the Auditor General has made a pretty big deal of it in his report.
Now we're finding out that some of the delays we're dealing with are as a direct result of that money being taken out. This is a big deal, and it's not that complicated. The fact is, there was a three-year plan to save $72 million. The first year was delayed, and yet they went ahead and took all the money out in one year. Now we're hearing from Shared Services the damage that did.
I can't get an answer out of Treasury Board because that's likely where the pressure came from. I would be very shocked if it were a bureaucrat who ordered them to take that money out. It would be an interesting pursuit of the separation between the bureaucratic and the political were we to go down that rabbit hole. But clearly, I think I can see the politics.
What I want to do is to come back to the Auditor General on this.
Sir, on page 22, exhibit 4.2, you've gone very much out of your way to explain this issue, to make sure that it's highlighted and that we understand.
Can you please give us your further thoughts and comments not only about how this was a mistake, but would you also tell us how this should have been properly handled and accounted for?
10:20 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you.
We felt it was an important case study for everyone to understand what happened. There was the plan to reduce the cost of providing the email services. The plan was to produce $56-million worth of savings. The fact that the $56 million was taken out of the budget before the transformation was completed was exactly the issue we wanted to put in front of Parliament, because we knew it would have an impact on the organization. Taking out the $56 million before the savings were generated meant that the organization would have to react to that in some other ways. I think we've just heard that, in the organization's opinion, the result has been delays in all of the other projects.
We have presented it simply as illustrative, so that people can understand the importance of making sure that the budget is following what is actually happening rather than the other way around. When budgets are reduced before activities have been completed that should produce those savings, it's going to have a sort of fallout effect on other parts of an organization. I think we've heard that today.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We have a saying where I come from and it goes like this, “How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time”. Here, it's as if we're trying to swallow the entire elephant whole. As a taxpayer and someone who represents taxpayers, I find this situation concerning.
In the last five years, we have invested $2 billion in this transformation, without a strategic plan. That is the past and we are going forward, but it is still something I find very concerning as a taxpayer.
I have a question for Mr. Messina.
The deputy minister you answer to, is it the same one who was there last year?
10:25 a.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'm sorry, I didn't catch the question.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Is the deputy minister that you report to the same one who was there last year?
10:25 a.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, the secretary of the Treasury Board.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you.
I'll go to Shared Services, and Mr. Parker or Mr. Glowacki.
In the recommendations put forward by the Auditor General they said you would refine your methodologies and practices for determining savings to support an update to the transformation plan. Basically, you guys are refining.
Can you provide us the specifics on what you will be refining?
10:25 a.m.
President, Shared Services Canada
Absolutely.
Mr. Chair, I'm going to ask Madame Fillion to talk to that question. It's her area of expertise.
10:25 a.m.
Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Shared Services Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
How will we ensure that the next transformation plan will generate savings? Clearly by implementing the strategic plan. What we have learned since the organization was created is depending on partners, as well as having to give them information on the cost of their services and managing service delivery.
Basically, as Mr. Parker said, the plan will focus on client services, and clients will be at the heart of the transformation plan. All our processes will be geared towards ensuring that we serve the clients properly, disclose their costs and better manage the transformation costs and the infrastructure maintenance costs.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
I want to make sure I fully understand you: are you going to take into account the increase in costs to your clients as well?
10:25 a.m.
Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Shared Services Canada
We are going to put them together, announce them, but it is not Shared Services Canada's responsibility to manage or implement processes in each of the departments. That would be too ambitious. However, we recognize the importance of reporting the costs for all departments.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
When we have a large box like that, we have a large inventory.
We have a lot of inventory here that we deal with. Is there a plan for inventory control? I'm worried because having seen everything else, I know this wasn't part of the Auditor General's report; however, it's something that comes to my mind. Inventory changes on a daily basis, and if you don't have proper controls, it can get out of hand quickly.
10:25 a.m.
Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Shared Services Canada
Yes, absolutely. We are developing a plan, which is part of our department's strategic investment plan. When the organization was created, the challenge was to make an inventory of the 43 departments, including assets. We will secure that in the asset replacement strategy, which was mentioned a little earlier. Using it and maintaining it at a good level is part of the whole inventory and assets management.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Once again, my question is for the Treasury Board representatives.
In terms of the strategic plan, which we hope to receive by June, will we be able to meet the deadline of 2020 to ensure the transformation and migration of all these systems to Shared Services Canada? I think that is what we are concerned about, ultimately. Yes, there are delays but, as Mr. Glowacki told us, it seems that there has already been some success.
Can we expect to see the completion of this transformation in 2020 as originally planned?
10:30 a.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
In response to that, I want to differentiate again. It's important to understand the difference between the IT strategic plan and the transformation plan Mr. Parker was referring to.
For the IT strategic plan, it's setting directions in terms of the way we want to go. We're dependent and we believe that's the proper way to go. We're dependent on the transformation plan that Mr. Parker was alluding to, which is being revised and revisited. We'll look to that in the fall time frame, and until we see that, it wouldn't be appropriate to make any commitments on the dates.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
